emb021

"I understood there was a new Powederhorn device that included pins on the back so that you did not need a button." Haven't heard of that, but there is also a smaller Powderhorn pin, and I know of people who have been wearing that instead of the larger device.

"Are there any type of gatherings planned for this Jamboree (OA, Wood Badge, NESA, Silver Beaver, etc.)?" As I noted, National seems to frown on such things. So my understanding: * OA- probably not. Haven't had even an OA show just for Arrowmen since 1993. Usual excuse was the Arrowmen were too busy with the OA service corps, show (ie Mysterium Compass this time), etc. * WB- probably not. AFAIK, the last official one was in 85. 89 & 93 had unofficial ones, and none since. * NESA- used to, but none in recent jambos * Silver Beaver- afaik, they've never done these. I seem to recall that there will be a Hornaday Award gathering. I believe they have a gathering for the James West & other donors (big surprise as these are your money people...) There will be an APO gathering, and we've had a Sea Scout gathering in the past, so would think we'd have another.

"Oh, were it just that easy! Anyone know where I might find the pre-1972 syllabus?" Been trying to get early WB syllabi. Every time they come up on eBay, they get bid up higher then I want to/can pay.

At every scout worship services I've been at, whether at a scout camp, OA event, camporee, or the like, a donation collection has been made, usually for the World Friendship Fund or the Mari Clancy Fund (if OA).

"Is this one of the aspects of the Jambo that is driving up the cost?????" Keep in mind that the Jamboree costs about $600-700. Anything beyond that is what the local council is charging for their costs. "Why aren't the troops cooking in the camp site??" To cut down on time spent in camp to give the kids more time doing the Jamboree activities. What do you want the scouts doing, having fun or cooking meals?

"The telemarketing company they sold my name to that sells the Eagle Scout alumni directories does a great job." FWIW, Harris is not a telemarketing company, and the BSA didn't sell your name to them. They hired them to update the list of Eagle Scouts. But if they couldn't contact certain Eagles, they won't have correct info. Harris did similiar work for my Fraternity.

Two issues here. First off, there are NO awards that individuals should be sending to National. They should be sent to your council. Some will stay and be processed locally, some will be sent on to National. The award you are speaking of (Unit Leader's Award of Merit) is processed locally, and there should be no charge for it. Second, as a member of several awards committees, one of the biggest issues I see is lack of submissions. We promote as best we can these awards, and we know there are people who should get them, but if there aren't any nominations, no one gets this. This is especially true for awards for which only a limited # can be given. Now, one award I am involved in, probably half the submissions get turned down. The information is not enought to determine that the person mets the qualifications. We always reserve the right to change this if a better (more complete) nomination is submitted, and have done so. Or if the nominee is known by several on the commitee, who know the person has met the criteria. But its a problem. Yes, sadly, some people may be given awards that they really don't deserve. Sometimes it may be because YOU really don't know what the person has done behind the scenes.

Here is some historical info I gleamed from my collection of OA Handbooks regarding Explorers joining the OA: 1948 OAHB Requirements- 14 years old, First Class or first Senior Scout rank [note we had an age requirement in addition to rank. Also, in 1949, 14 was the minimum age for joining Explorers, and ALL boys were automatically Explorers at that age, even in a troop] 1959 OAHB. Any Explorer, regardless of rank [this made sense, as in 1959, they dropped any ranks for Explorers. Air Explorers and Sea Explorers still had ranks.] 1975 OAHB. Only male Explorers, regardless of rank. Now OA part of BS division [prior, National OA Committee under Nat Camping Committee, so OA has been part of the Boy Scout Program for only 35 years. BTW, Explorers went fully co-ed in 1971, yet AFAIK, they didn't change the policy until then] 1980 OAHB. Explorers must hold First Class rank, only male members of Post can vote. 1989 OAHB. Explorers must hold First Class rank, but all Explorers vote. The 1991 Operations Update announces the ending of Explorer elections, but I recall it happened earlier.

First off, people need to understand that there are different 'levels' of uniforms, and there are different times when they are appropriate. This is based on my experiences (nearly 40 years as youth & adult) and what's I've seen in my state. Around here, these are the uniforms most understand: * dress uniform (full uniform with fancy stuff: merit badge sash, medals, etc) * full uniform (aka "Class A") scout shirt, scout pants/shorts, scout belt, scout hat, optional neckerchief. scout socks if shorts. * activity uniform (aka "Class B") scout t-shirt, scout shorts & socks, scout belt, hat. * grubbies (aka "class C") scout t-shirt. any types of pants/shorts. For me (and others) wearing non scouting clothing is NOT being in uniform, no matter how 'nice' they look. Dress uniform is for dressy occasions (COH, Award banquets, etc). Full uniform is for when you need to be in uniform, and won't be doing too much active stuff (scout meetings, touring, assembly/meals at camp, etc) Activity uniform is for when you will be more active, sweaty, but not dirty. What's nice is you can switch from "A" to "B" by just putting on your uniform shirt. So this is fine for activities at scout meetings, most activities at scouting events, etc) Grubbies is when you're going to get dirty, but still want to be identified as scouts. This is for dirty stuff at camp, service projects, etc. Having uniforms at scouting events is important, as you are identified as SCOUTS and not just random people. Being in uniform also sets a tone amoung the participants. Sorry, but I've never bought into this idea of being in uniform from the waist up.

"emb021, "Oh? Then why is Venturing billed as "Scouting's Next Step" if its not part of Scouting???" "It is? Please lead me to the official document that does this." "I have yet to hear Venturing billed as anything except another option for youth interested in high adventure. " Well, I assume you're not involved in Venturing, and don't know much about it. "Venturing: Scoutings Next Step" is a catch phrase from the early days, as its on one of the Venturing promotional items. I know I've heard it and kind of used it for many years. I wouldn't have done so if National themselves didn't use it on their materials. "Let's give Venturers an Outdoor Award, too." Already do. That's the Outdoor Bronze and the Ranger Award...

For most people, what Eagle92 described is what is known as "Class B". I think most units in my area expect full uniforms. At OA events (including section events) its full uniform (A) at certain parts, and activity uniform (B) for other parts. Its also pretty standard at most scouting events.

"Venturing, while a program of the BSA, is not a part of the Scouting program." Oh? Then why is Venturing billed as "Scouting's Next Step" if its not part of Scouting???

"The Order is a program element of the Boy Scout program only, as it has been for 83 years." except that the "it has been for 83 years" is a bit of hyperbole. It was originally part of the Senior Scout Division. I's have to check my notes, but the OA wasn't moved to the Boy Scout program until the 60s or 70s. "Venturers do not earn the First Class rank of the Boy Scouts of America, a key membership requirement that must be met before a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout is eligible for election into the Order of the Arrow." While true, not so in the past, where Explorers were elected in without needing First Class from day one.

"These young ladies that are working at the camps, while they may be great, are employees, plain and simple. There are a lot of young men that work at these camps also that are not OA members, so why should we make changes for the female youth?" Please. To just call these youth, boys and girls, 'employees' is a bit insulting. This isn't the same as working a part time job to these youth. John in KC may have said it more 'forcefully' then I would, but I'd have to agree. "The rules say, OA is a Boy Scout Youth Program." 'rules'?? What 'rules'?? The placement of the OA program under the Boy Scout Program was fairly recent. When the OA was first pulled into the BSA, it was put into the Senior Program, along with the other senior programs (Explorer Scouts, Air Scouts, Sea Scouts, etc). This is why elections to the OA was possible for various scouts in the senior programs, and remained so until the 80s. Later it was moved to the Camping committee, and much later to the Boy Scout committee. But the Boy Scout Committee is no more. So, should the OA still be thought as part of the 'Boy Scout Program'?? That's for others to determine...

I can't speak about your council, but in mine we have several crews (and troops) who have COs like "Friends of Unit XXX" or "Parents of Unit YYY" and the sort. Some of our best and longest running units are so chartered. How organized are they (ie incorporated or the like?) I have no idea.

"Until Councils can recruit and retain all male staffs" I know of no council who has such a goal. Most councils have adult females on their staff, and have done so for a long time. Further, many have been including female Venturers. I doubt there is any interest in being all-male for their summer camp staff. When you have female volunteers & professionals, its silly to try.

"I nominate Mike Rowe for Chief Scout, is there a second" SECOND!

Girl Guides UK still exist. How big/strong it is, is another question. Not sure how 'strong' WAGGGS is in comparison to WOSM. "I don't see it happening though until the LDS church backs out of the BSA. Many church members don't see that too far away, maybe 5 years at the most!" Why does the LDS need to 'back out' of the BSA for the BSA to go co-ed?? Venturing is co-ed, and the LDS doesn't seem to have an issue, as they are able to keep their crews all-male. I would think that so long as they can determine that their units can be single gender, that should be fine. The LDS is involved with Scouts Canada, which is co-ed.

I certainly think the BSA should open up to girls below 14, just sure what's best, whether co-ed units or single gender. Is co-ed Cub Scouts a good idea?? Or even co-ed "Boy" Scouts? I certainly think that there would need to be some tweeking of the program, to make the advancement work with both genders (I would prefer that both boys and girls being working the same awards). Now, some charter orgs WILL want to have single-gender units, so I don't like the idea of FORCING units to be single-gender (we don't do this in Venturing, so why do it with the younger ages). So leave it up to each charter org as to what they want. Also, I like the idea of if a CO whats 2 single-gender units that this work under an umbrella committee (maybe even the same unit number).

There is a difference between wearing someone you didn't earn, or displaying such an item as to give the impression you earned it (when you didn't) and just possessing an item you didn't earn. I have a display case of all the Venturing awards. Due to my age, its impossible for me to have earned any of them, but its clear by my use that its just a display (a collection), not a display of items I've earned. I've never encountered anyone who thought I had earned them.

"As for Ebay, it ticks me off no end that low-life, so called scouts and scouters snap new stuff up and then sell it on Ebay." That doesn't bother me so much as the people who put stuff up on eBay for more then what one could buy it from a Scout Store or ScoutStuff. I saw these patches up there, and wanted one for my display. I ordered it from ScoutStuff rather then paying $10 or so on eBay. I challenged one person who had jacked up the price on something, and he acted like he was doing a 'service' for people who couldn't get to a scout shop (like they couldn't order it by mail, phone or on-line).

"Lisabob - there is a crew near me that exists only so older scouts who joined the OA while in a troop can maintain their OA membership after their tie to their troop fades. It is a bit inconsistent with the concept of arrowmen focusing on unit service, but that was why the crew was formed." I know of several such crews. Some were formed as Explorer posts. I also know of indian lore crews (again, many were Explorer Posts) were are heavily associated with their lodges because they are basically the drum team, dance team, OA indian hobbyists, etc. "On a tangent - why would the BSA lower the entry age for Venturing if it was concerned about retaining boys in its core program?" the lowering of the age had ZILCH to do with that. It was about kids who were in high school, but due to age, couldn't join Venturing crews. Hence the "finish 8th grade" tied to 13.

"After some recent discussion about the loss of the different border flaps another adult Arrowman brought up another issue." Uh, its actually been policy for many decades that lodges should not do different color border flaps. Just that some choice to ignore it or the like. "That is, he believes there should be a way to tell which adults were "selected" to serve as Scouters, and which were "elected" as Youth." Well, fwiw, in Mic-O-Say, they use horns on their necklaces to indicate if the adult received membership as a youth or as an adult. (turned in or turned out, don't know off hand which is which).

"Our troop is more active and high adventure than any of the districts crews....... In our troops opinion they are posers." Again, 'high adventure' is not the purpose of Venturing. If the crew is not a high adventure crew, you can't call them posers. You're comparing apples to oranges. (now, if a crew claims to be a high adventure crew, and then doesn't do any, that's another matter).

"That is up for the national chief, VC and the regional chiefs to make." Not, its not. They really don't get to make such decisions. The power lies in the OA National Committee, and even then, they have been overruled. I heard (FWIW) that there HAD been dicussion about opening up the OA to female venturers, pushed by the youth, but this was overruled by the Boy Scout Committee which was (at the time) over the OA Committee. "I assume that youth can attend up to 21 if in Venturing and only 18 if in Boy Scouts. This is further confused in that Wood Badge has been opened up to 18 year olds. So you could go to NYLT one week and then off to Wood Badge a week later." Actually, what they want is for those under 18 to go to NYLT, those over to go to WB. I'll leave it to others to discuss the good/bad of making NYLT program neutral and allowing 18-21 into WB. "As I recall back in the day, OA membership was also open to male Explorer scouts." Yes, quite true. I reviewed my collection of OA Handbooks, and they allowed for male Explorers (and Sea Scouts, etc) to be elected into the OA without needing any Boy Scout rank from the begining until sometime in the 1980s, long after Explorers went co-ed.