Eamonn

It is a wonderful thing that this Lad is still around at this age. It says a lot for the program that was offered. As for the SMC. You know this Lad. You know good points and his weaknesses. At this age, his time as a youth member is all but over (Unless he is a Sea Scout?. I think I'd use this opportunity to look back over his time as a Scout dwelling on what he thinks he has learned and got from being a Scout. In a very nice and very friendly way, maybe I might point out some of the areas that he might want to take a look at and maybe work on, but at the same time I'd also look at the things he has done well. While I don't believe that Scouts owe anyone anything and I don't expect them in any way to pay back. I do believe that being an Eagle Scout means that you are always an Eagle Scout and that you are expected to live up to what this means. What does it mean? This is up to the Lad and might be worth discussing. While I know that others might not agree but for me this would be a "Warm and Fuzzy" meeting. (Unless of course the Lad is a little toad!) Well done to you for the work you have done with him and well done to him for making it this far. Ea.

When I'm presenting BSA training's or presentations at work, I as a rule add that the only dumb question is the one that you didn't ask. Each and every one of us has had different experiences and been exposed to different things. Add to this that what might be important to you, might not be to me. Where as I tend to look at things and try and see where who ever put it together was trying to go? Others have a need to understand what is being said to the last letter and then do their best to implement it. These people very well might be more "Right" than I am? Also we tend to have some things that we each really take to heart. I had the misfortune to spend a week at Philmont with a Lady who wanted to make everything a YP issue. She really got on my last nerve! I tend to go a bit over the top when teaching knots as I'm afraid that someone will get hurt by tyeing a knot wrong. I have a mental image of us all standing on a dock watching a boat leave without us. Looking back I still think the strangest thing I have read in these forums was from a Scoutmaster who wanted to put together an Excel sheet that the SPL would use to record the BM of the Scouts at summer camp! That one struck me as being funny. Ea.

The L.L. Bean catalog ended up in our "Reading Room". I think it's a hint from HWMBO that I didn't buy her the boots that she wanted for Christmas. Has a picture of a nice looking dog on the cover. But I might be biased! Flipping through the pages I seen some snow shoes. I know nothing about snow shoes, never used them or even picked up a pair. Has any one ever used them? The ones in the catalog are not expensive, about $100.00. Is this a good price or are they junk? Any comments or help would be much appreciated. I now have about eight inches of that horrible white stuff in my yard. Ea.

HiLo, I was kinda very jealous of you and your fellow countrymen today. Here in SW-PA it was bitter cold, with a nasty wind and more of that white stuff. Even Ollie my English setter who normally will walk and stay out for hours couldn't wait to get back into the house today! Dudley the Goldie pup, was having a great time playing in the snow. - He is just too young to know any better. Must be great to be young! Kinda looks like it's going to remain like this for the next week or so! I hate the cold. Ea.

When I brought up the cost of Scouting, I wasn't so much much thinking of the cost for the individual. If my math is right? It costs the Council about $220 per youth member. We can argue about how this is spent, if it is worth it or not. But at the end of the day that is the cost. Back when I was a Leader once a year we send ten pound to National and moaned and groaned about that. Almost everyone I have met who is a Scouter from outside of the BSA is very impressed about the resources that are available to and for American Scouters. Back home when I needed a badge for a Scout I waited until 1900 on a Tuesday night and got on a bus to visit the Badge Secretary, a volunteer. If I wasn't there by 2100, he'd have packed up shop and gone home. The idea of just going to the local Council Service Center being waited on by the nice Lady in the nice warm building, looking in to see what the DE,the SE and the Program Director is nice. But that service comes at a cost. The volunteer Badge Secretary worked for free. Each year the Council employs a staff of about 60 for Summer Camp Staff. The camp site is less than 30 minutes from where I live. I have very strong emotional ties to the camp. It's where I met HWMBO and is the reason why I ended up here in the USA (And have done more than OK thank you!) The fee charged for summer camp really doesn't cover the real cost of the camp. It doesn't take into account the depreciations of equipment needed for the camp and the real cost of maintaining the camp. For nearly all the Troops in the Council, summer camp at the council camp is the program offered for each and every summer. Sad to say that after about 3 years the Lad who has gone to this camp, feels that he has "Done that, been there and has a wardrobe full of t-shirts" He is no longer challenged by what is offered. A good pal of mine served on the Scout Association Committee Of The Council back in the UK. This is a fairly small committee that is the governing body for English Scouting (Pint, - It's Martin.) I have no idea how the BSA ever gets anything done with so many people serving on so many different committees that make up the BSA National Council. I have a good friend from the Council I serve who sat on the Relationships Committee for many years and from what he has said nothing ever gets done in a hurry. I of course don't have a crystal ball, so I can't tell what the future holds. But having served on the Area Committee, which served 13 (Now 11) near by Councils. I kinda think that the days of the small Council are numbered. Here in SW-PA we tend to have a good many small Councils. Many in rural areas. Over the past few years the membership in these small Councils has been on the decline, so has the amount of money that they have been able to raise. Four or five years back our local United Way decided that they were no longer going to give money to organizations that had a endowment fund. We had such a fund. They "De-funded" us over 3 years. The $90,000 went down by $30,000 a year. Of course the Executive Board said that we would look at new fund raising events and ideas. So far nothing has happened and the buck seems to have fallen back on the volunteers with more and more requests for FOS and a bigger push to sell popcorn. At the same time membership has gone down so here is less people to donate and less kids selling the popcorn. In the Area (Councils that fall under the Area Committee) There are Council Camps that are running summer camps with less than 400 campers per summer. The only way they remain open is by having volunteers who have other positions also work as unpaid camp staff members. This works as a short term fix, but will not work as large items that a camp needs to operate wear out and need replaced. For the most part the salaries that are paid to our professionals are set not by the people in the Councils that these professionals serve, but by a set scale. Again we can argue if these people are under paid or over paid and if they really do or do not earn what they are paid. We however are stuck paying them, until such a time as we can no longer afford to pay them. When this happens?? Camps are sold and services are cut or Councils have to merge. Which again normally results is camp sites being sold and less local services being available to the volunteers. There is or seems to be a push to recruit more of the less fortunate youth into our programs. A push I fully support. My hope is that the big Metro Councils will be able to raise the extra cash that is needed to support the units and kids that we bring in. Still here is rural PA we have a big problem. The small local businesses that have in the past supported local Councils are going out of business, being replaced by the bigger multi-national stores and businesses. Who have a very strict policy about who they will and will not support. Here in my small town our local bank went from being a family owned bank which was well known for supporting the community to becoming part of a State wide Bank and is now part of a bank based in New York. I'm not sure why? But in the area where I live we seem to have a lot of churches. Most are very pro-Scouting, but when I have visited them on a Sunday there doesn't seem to be that many people in the pews and the people there are elderly. Even the church I attend, the local R/C is seeing a big decline in attendance and money in the plate. In fact the priest has just send out a letter asking for extra cash in order to heat the church. The likelihood of there being any extra cash for the Scout Troop that the church charters is about zero. Already the parishioners are being asked to dig a little deeper to help the school, the cemetery, the organ and a lot of other things. Selling them a box of $30.00 popcorn is a real hard sell. Back when I was in the UK Scouting seemed a lot more local. If the local Scout Troop needed funds it had a Jumble Sale (Yard sale) the people in the community donated the stuff they didn't need and then came out and bought more stuff which they more than lightly would never need. This money was used by the local Troop to support the program that the kids in the area were part of, with none of it going to anyone else. There was never any requests to donate to the District, County or National or any such thing as a popcorn sale.. Eamonn.

Mafaking The way you have put it, I sound like I'm trying to rub someones nose in it! This was never my intention. The BSA has done a far better job of getting more adults involved in Scouting than any other Scouting organization that I know of. The largest youth camp on the planet is owned and operated by the BSA. There is no such thing s a charter in the UK so I'm not sure how you can post " Chartering /Scouting organization relationship are better in the UK" ?? I'm not a great fan of how Council Camps are set up and ran, but I'm willing to admit that there are different horses for different courses. I'm also willing to admit that the BSA has done a wonderful job of "Selling" Eagle Scout Rank. In my view maybe too good a job! I hope that you noticed that I didn't even mention advancement in my original post, I was answering a question asked by acco40. I have family members who belong to different Scout Organizations all over the world and I have visited different countries, sometimes with a Troop in tow and seen some of how they work. In my opinion which is not worth a dime! Some things that others do seem like wonderful ideas and other things are maybe not so wonderful. Having said that one thing that does seem to remain constant is the great work that volunteers all over the world do for the kids in the areas where they live. Most of these volunteers are just average people who give up their time and their hard earned cash to make a difference in the lives of the kids thy work for. They have little or no control about how the organization is set up. A very good pal of mine who has been in Scouting as long as I have been (We were both Scouts in the same District at the same time.)Is a member of the LDS Church in the UK. He is very unhappy about some of the changes that have been made in the UK. If you were to talk with him, he firmly believes that American Scouting is where it's at and that English Scouting is going to someplace in a handbag. Anyone in this forum is free to ignore what I post, they can if they wish think that I'm a first class twit. No one has to participate in any thread or topic they don't want or wish to participate in. Eamonn.

Thinking and looking back to when I was a Scout and later on as a leader. Scouting seemed to be more about belonging to the group and doing stuff as part of that group rather then becoming or earning something. Mafaking, I'm willing to bet my last dollar that the Scouts who spent Summer camps with the Troop I was the leader of did a lot more "Stuff" and were a lot more self-sufficient that the Scouts I see at our Council Summer camp running from one Merit Badge class to the next. Their investment of time was a lot bigger than the American Scouts, being as most English Scout only got six weeks off during the summer. While I'm not up to date on all the changes that have taken place in England, from what I have read it does seem that there is a big shift from advancement to participation. I'm not sure how many or what percent of English Scouts go on to become Queen or King Scout's. But being as you couldn't become or start working on it until you became a Venture Scout at age 16 (Back in the day.) I'm tempted to think that it's less than the number that make Eagle Scout. It's strange I don't ever remember anyone ever saying that they joined Scouts in the UK in order to become a Queen's Scout. It was just something that you kinda fell into if you belonged to an active group. Eamonn

Along with having very sexy knees, I'm known for being a friendly sort of fellow. I really do try and be friendly. Even when someone has messed up, I try to be nice and explain what they did that wasn't right and why maybe I feel upset, harmed or maybe just let down. I seem to know a lot of people, where possible I try and know something more about them than just their name. I use this information to help put them at ease and make them aware that maybe in some way I do care about them. (Which I do!) There are some people that I'm closer to than others. We might not see each other for very long periods of time but then when we do get together it's like we were never apart,this is especially true for my close friends back in the UK. When I'm out (That is not in! I mean away from home, not cricket!) I like to have fun. I look for and enjoy the silly and ridiculous. I laugh a lot and really enjoy things even when they are maybe not going as well as they should. This tends to ensure that others who enjoy that sort of thing tend to hang out with me or near me. I do enjoy the limelight. But when it comes to best friends? I think I have about a handful. One is still across the pond, we exchange emails a lot but don't get in each others way. One is the guy who when OJ was born was going to get OJ is anything ever happened to HWMBO and myself. I love this guy to death and I can't think of not doing anything he ever might ask. Strange thing is that until I read what others posted I never really thought of HWMBO as a friend. I tend to think of her as being a part of me. We enjoy different things, enjoy our own space, but we have such a close bond that I think maybe it's more than any sort of friendship. I also am very close to my dogs! Kinda nice to have a friend that is always there, offers you nothing but unconditional love and doesn't answer back. When HWMBO was first diagnosed with cancer I was mad! I was mad at the world, mad at God, just really mad. I was also trying to be "Cool" I didn't want anyone to see me upset or cry. It was my dogs who were three for me. They were my sanctuary. Today I have over being mad. I'm thankful for the time HWMBO and I have had and hope to have. Still everyday I'm out with the dogs, singing them silly songs (Mainly Irish folk songs with the words changed) They don't tell me to shut up or care that I'm way off key. The new little guy - Dudley now comes running back to me when I whistle the tune or what is supposed to be the tune of The Black Velvet Band. Anyone who can take my singing twice a day? Now that's a friend. Of course friendship is very much like owning a dog it needs nurtured and looked after. But the benefits are just wonderful Eamonn.

Back in the UK, POR was the abbreviation for Policy, Organization and Rules. It covered everything you wanted to know about Scouting but were afraid to ask. Ea

For anyone who isn't in the BSA, but might be in Scouting somewhere else, the question "Why do they do that?" Or "How do they do that?" Pops up every now and then. HiLo, I have never been to the Land Down Under (My little sister is in your neck of the woods for the Christmas Holiday.) I kinda think that Australian Scouting is very much like English Scouting? I might be way off base! Also, I have now been doing things over here for the past quarter century! So I know things have changed a lot in the UK. Here are a few things that I had a hard time understanding and getting used to. 1/ The cost of American Scouting. Back home everything was done by volunteers. The Staff who worked for the National organization (At 25 Buckingham Palace Road and then later at BP House) was less than most Councils have over here. The Council I serve is a very small one, with only four Districts and about 6,000 youth, but last time I looked the budget was about 1.3 million dollars (US. With a little more than 25% of that being spent on salary and benefits for staff. As you can imagine needing that sort of cash does make funding a very high priority. 2/ Summer Camp. I was a Scout Leader in the UK for about 11 years. Every Summer we would load up all of the Troops camping equipment and go off to summer camp for two weeks. Some years we camped in a field that a local farmer would provide, some years we'd use a National Camp site. But other than a camp shop and maybe equipment that could be rented or just used! The camp provided a place to camp. I was shocked when I came to the USA back in 1977 and seen Scouts come to camp to stay in tents that were already up, eat in a dining hall and run around from Merit Badge station to station. Admittedly not every Troop does this but it is the norm rather than the exception. The biggest challenge the Scoutmaster has is where he is going to place his chair! 3/ Charters. Back when I was a UK Scout Leader, I received a warrant from the Scout Association. The Scout units were part of the Scout Association. Some did meet in Church owned property, some had the name of a church on their name tag. I for a while was a Assistant Cub Scout Leader for the 35th Fulham (St. Thomas of Canterbury) Most of the kids in both the Pack and the Troop were Catholic, but the church had no say in who the leaders would be or what the Scout units did or didn't do. If an adult did something wrong, volunteers at the District and County level dealt with it and the wrong doer ran the risk that the Scout Association, would pull his or her warrant. A Pack, a Troop and maybe a Venture Scout Unit would form a Scout Group, with the Pack feeding the Troop and the Troop feeding the Venture Unit (I know this has now changed a little, because there are more sections.) The Scout Group was led by a Group Scout Leader. He worked closely with a Scout Committee, but nine times out of ten most groups didn't have a committee and never felt the need to have one. The running of the Scout Group was left to the leaders who led the sections. This idea of serving both the "Scouts" along some other "Master" along with a committee, which may or may not have had any Scouting or real dealing with youth groups experiences seemed really odd to me, 4/ Commissioners. Back home the District Commissioner was the top guy in the District (The top guy in a county was the County Commissioner.) There really was no such thing as Commissioner Service and no Commissioner was in any way linked to a unit or Scout Group. My old District had something like 60 units, with only a District Commissioner along with three Assistants. 5/ The Scout Oath. Back home it was the Scout Promise. I kinda think that making it an Oath and expecting young kids to make an Oath? Might be a bit over the top. I'd loved to have been able to hear what BP had to say about "To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." I know that BP and James E. West didn't get along. Mainly because West wanted Scouting to be a little more business like than BP. I was very happy with: On my honor, I promise that I will do my best to do my duty to God and to the Queen, to help other people and to keep the Scout Law. When I first got involved with the BSA, I was very impressed with a lot of what was going on and on how well organized everything seemed. Over time I now see that all this organization is not really doing that much for the end user (The kids in the organization. The quality of the program he receives in both the UK and the USA is dependent on the imagination and know how of the leader at the unit level. I wouldn't say that one is better than the other. But the cost of providing that program here in the USA is so very high. I just received our Council newsletter. Half of the pages are about the popcorn sale, the rest is about FOS (The Council asking for donations) and it seems that a week at camp is going to cost almost $300.00. I understand and accept that this is the way things are and have to be. But it is a long way from what Scouting back in London was 25 years back. Eamonn

When OJ was a little fellow I signed him up to attend the R/C school that was part of the church we attend. In time he joined the Pack that the church chartered. I was on a couple of Council committees. Kinda not doing very much, other than writing the odd check. Somehow, someway I got talked into becoming Cubmaster. Even if I say so myself, I did a fairly good job. The Pack grew to having about 70 Cub Scouts, most of them were not Catholic. Along with the kids we selected and managed to enlist a lot of adult help. Most of the adults were not Catholic. The Parish Priest wasn't very good with kids. He was a very deeply religious fellow. But he accepted the Pack I think because it was there before he arrived. Every year I'd pop in for a visit and he'd sign anything I'd put under his nose. If he wasn't around I left the papers with the church secretary and I'd pick up the signed papers a little later. Yes we were allowed the use of the church hall for Pack Meetings. Yes we held a Scout Sunday Service once a year and he did a wonderful job. OJ grew and went on to become a Boy Scout in a Troop chartered by a United Methodist Church. He left this Troop to join a Troop chartered by a Civic Group for a small town down the road, not the town we live in. I went on to become District Commissioner and then District Chairman. When there was a problem with a Scouting unit within the District. Many of the Scouter's called the DE, some called me. I can't think of one that ever called the CO. Time after time in this forum I read about CO's who do nothing or next to nothing for the Scout units that charter. Every now and then someone will post "It's up to the CO"! When I see this I can't help thinking that if the truth were known most CO's not only don't know what is going on with the Scouting unit, but more than that most don't really care. Sure we have a few that do and some that really do. The Pack I was CM has now folded. We don't have a R/C Pack in the District, we still have Catholic kids, many who are Cub Scouts. Both they and their parents seem to be happy Scouting in Packs that are chartered by other organizations. Ea.

Not sure how? But I seem to have not made myself very clear. I don't, not now or anytime in the near future see the LDS or the R/C Church changing their stance on gays. I do see other organizations that charter Scouting units taking a closer look at this issue and I believe that many will not agree with the BSA. As far as I'm concerned this gay thing is much a do about nothing. As I posted I couldn't care less what other people do in their own bedrooms. History has shown that there have been some gay men who were very good leaders and some were outstanding soldiers, who I really don't see anyone having a problem following. While there are effeminate acting gay men. I kinda think that they might not want to participate in the outdoor programs (Yes I know I might come off sounding like a bigot!) I also kinda think that a good many of the youth we lead might not want to be led by a person like that. Sure for a while there might be some kind of a shock?? But in time that would just fade away. The HS my son attended has two openly gay teachers. While every now and then I do hear the odd whispered comment that so and so is gay. However for the most part both the students and their parents accept that the teacher is just that a teacher. Today's teenagers will be the people who replace us old codgers. They see things in a different light than many of us.They just don't see being gay or homosexual as being a big deal. Ea.

Hi, I have never been on staff at a Jamboree. However a good many of my friends have gone back time and time again. If it was all bad? I don't think they would have. Most of these guys have staffed in the Action Areas. My son was on staff in 2005, he had a great time. He got to meet Hoop-Scout who was also on staff in the repelling area. I don't know much about the food. But back in 2001 in sub camp 5 there was a group from New Jersey doing the cooking for staff. The head cook and bottle washer was an Irish guy, who made sure I never wanted for a cup of coffee and had mastered the art of cooking cakes and fried chicken. Needless to say I was a frequent visitor. Bob White who used to post in this forum was on staff and he and I did get to spend some time together that year. While of course it's not the Hilton. I'm sure that you'll have a great time. I'm not going next year as I have a lot of other stuff that I need to take care of. Ea.

Hi, Not sure about how your little guys do in the cold? While I'm not a winter lover (Read fair weather camper!) I do fine with my high wicking t-shirts (I wear cool max) which I wear for work. I have to wear a stab resistant protective vest which makes me sweat a lot! I wear a lot of wool sweaters during the winter, so them along with a good quality winter coat (I have a few right now I'm into a nice one that I got from L.L Bean, last year I was wearing a Columbia jacket which I could have removed the liner from. -I never did!) You might want to avoid jeans, as once they get wet they are about useless. My feet and hands get really cold. I found wearing two pairs of good fitting socks, one thin pair and one wool pair along with good boots take care of my feet. Last year I went wild and bought a really expensive pair of gloves from a hunting store, they work well, but if your kids are like me when I was a lad? I tended to lose a lot of single gloves! My mother fixed that by sewing a tape to each glove which could then be threaded through the sleeves of my jacket. A nice woolly cap on top and your guys should be good to go. While I don't like the cold, I do go out everyday with the dogs and we walk about 3 -5 miles, no matter what the weather is. Hope your guys have a great time. Ea.

The thread "What would have to change if gays were allowed in?" Is getting a little long for me. In a nut shell here is my take on it. Kids be they gay, straight , male or female should not be having sex. Take the sex "Out" and I don't see how we can have homosexual or heterosexual Scouts. I have mixed feelings about the discrimination the organization that I belong to has in place. I am a Roman Catholic, I'm not gay. I have been married for 27 years during which time I have been faithful to my wife. I'm very comfortable in my own sexuality. I'm very comfortable with my wife. I can look at a good looking female and express the fact that she is good looking, I can also look at a good looking handsome male and say that he is a good looking fellow. Over the years I have worked with a fair number of guy men and I know a few women who, while maybe not "Out" like some of the men are happy with their female partners. I don't dwell or give any thought what so ever to what other people do in their bedrooms. I don't care or want too care. More and more of the young adults I talk with don't see being gay or being straight as being any sort of a big deal. They do see discrimination as being a big deal and see it as being wrong. - These young adults are the future leaders of our organization. I'm not sure if they will want to be part of an organization which they see as practicing something they see as being wrong? Like it or not an organization like the BSA is very much about membership and funding. Right now as I see it we are between a rock and a hard place. Both the R/C Church and the LDS Church charter a lot of units and have a lot of their members in our organization. Upsetting them is not the best idea in the world. On the other hand many of the companies that might be willing to be seen to donate cash are unwilling to be seen supporting an organization which does discriminate. If we put the R/C the LDS Churches to one side, there are other organizations and churches that are or seem to be struggling with the gay issue. What happens when (Or maybe I should say if?) the military stand on gays is changed and the VFW has openly gay members? Will they want to charter a Scouting unit that wouldn't allow them to serve? The Anglicans and the Methodists seem to taking this gay thing by the horns. Sure right now there seems to be a lot of fussing and fighting but I go back and look to the young people who just don't see any reason for the fuss. I do think that in time the local option will come about. Then we are still left with what to do about the agnostics and the atheists? I don't see that changing anytime soon. Seems that you just can't win! Ea.

Maybe some of you "Old-timers" might want to share more about how things were done in the good olde days? Youngsters like myself love hearing your old war stories! Ea. I have now ducked!

Not trying to hijack the thread, but... A very longtime back, I took the Campfire Leaders course which at the time was offered and ran at Gilwell Park. A great course and a lot of fun. If there was one not so great thing about it. I couldn't help thinking that while it worked great for organizing "Big Camp Fires" )At the time I was a Service Team Member at Walton Firs National Camp Site in Cobham, Surrey and one weekend a month led the campfire there.) It maybe went a little too far in over-organizing camp fires which didn't offer the Scouts to do their own thing or use their imagination. We adults are at times so busy wanting things to be so right and look so good we tend to get in the way of the kids. Kinda all boils down to this youth led stuff. Ea.

Maybe at the end of the day, the change will just happen with little or no fuss? While where I live things tend to be "Ozzie and Harriet, type normal" - Whatever that might mean?? I guess it isn't going to be long till we have little fellows signing up to join packs who have two same sex parents. What happens when these parents want to be involved with their son and his Scouting activities? What happens when the CO wants them to be involved? Or states that preventing them is just wrong? What changes had to be made in 1964 after The Civil Rights Act became law? From what I've seen and heard about Scouting in the UK. No big or even small changes were needed. It just happened and was accepted. I have had a few Sea Scouts in the Ship (Male and female couples) who have been dating. I sat them down and we set a few rules of what was and what wasn't acceptable at Scouting events. It really wasn't a big deal (The big deal came when they stopped being boy friend and girl friend. As a rule one of them ended up quitting the Ship.) Many of us who are youth leaders had had Scouts who have done things that were wrong or we have heard about Scouts doing things that they ought not to have done. I was a Scout and used to sneak off for a quick smoke! My brother-in-law, some years back had to send a patrol of Scouts home from a summer camp for smoking marijuana. Scouts have been known to take alcoholic beverages to camp with them. We have learned to deal with just about every situation that has come along. I know that there is no way that I can watch over a bunch of Scouts 24/7. The truth is that if I felt I had to, they wouldn't be Scouts. Trust and being trusted is a big part of being a Scout. Still if two young people to sneak off and do "Whatever" I really think that there isn't very much I can do about it. But being as this is an organization that is all about helping and teaching young people to make ethical choices, I can do my best at the front end to help and teach them. Eamonn.

Sometime back in the early 1970's there was a play in the West End titled:No Sex Please, We're British . I never went to see it, so I don't know much about it other than the title. I'd be happy if we had something in the BSA that read : No Sex Please, We're Scouts. I can't wait till the Billy Elliot the musical goes on tour or I'm able to catch it in London. I loved the movie. My heart went out for Billy as I watched it. I really wanted him to be the hero that he was. I don't know if a young Lad is gay or not. Even if he turns around and says that he thinks he might be. I don't know. I do know what is acceptable and what isn't. In my book kids having sex is not acceptable. I don't care what sort of sex it is. I've had a few effeminate acting male Scouts over the years and some of the female Sea Scouts master skills that maybe at one time were seen as not being things that little ladies should be doing. So what is the litmus test for knowing that a youth member is gay? The young Lad at OJ's birthday party, might never have ever had sex. Is he gay? Ea.

Not that I'd ever want to tell anyone what they should be doing!! Could it be that you might be talking to the wrong person? Maybe a word with the Executive Officer (IH) might be a good idea? I can sorta, kinda understand why a group that only wants to shoot might not feel that BSA training's are really their cup of tea. If however the Council has made training mandatory? Then it's mandatory. I think maybe if I were the U/C I'd be happy to pass this one on and let the Key 3 deal with it. My thinking being that maybe the District needs them (The Crew) more than they might need the District. Sometimes doing nothing and passing the buck is the thing to do. Ea.

When the Ship I serve first started we only had male leaders. The Sea Scouts were both male and female. We did when we went away overnight take a female with us either a parent or a female from another unit. There is no requirement on the charter that states crews that are co-ed have to have co-ed leadership. If I were you I wouldn't go there. Ea.

Eamonn - you say "I don't treat [girls] any different than the boys." But surely this isn't true when it comes to sleeping arrangements, is it? Of course where possible (Sometimes on a small boat it isn't always possible.) Adults, Male youth, female youth youth do all have separate sleeping quarters. Adults and youth respect the privacy of others. I posted a few years back that the Ship's Committee had to remove a male Sea Scout for acting inappropriately toward another male Sea Scout. At the time there was a lot of talk about if the Lad was gay or not? My argument was it didn't make any difference. I didn't care if this had been a boy and a girl, a girl and a boy or two girls. Inappropriate is inappropriate. As a Scout and a young leader back in the UK before all the changes. The District I served and was in was led by a really nice fellow. Ernie, this man gave his life to Scouts and Scouting. He was well respected by everyone and received a good many recognitions for the work he done. I liked and respected him. He was at times able to keep me in check, when I first became a leader and was very much like a bull in a china shop. Ernie was never married, but at the time this wasn't uncommon for a good many adult leaders in the UK. Scouting was never seen as the family activity it is here in the USA. At the time a lot of men who were involved in Scouting seemed to be so deeply involved that no one really gave it a second thought. I moved across the pond. Ernie passed away. Years past and I was having lunch with a very close and dear friend at the dinning room n New Scotland Yard. My friend was at the time one of the highest ranking officers in the London Metropolitan Police. He had served as an Assistant District Commissioner to Ernie. At lunch we were reminiscing, talking about the good old days and the people we had worked with. Ernie's name came up. I was shocked when my friend said that Ernie was gay. Ernie did seem to have a lot of younger nephews that would come and stay with him. I never gave this a second thought. It seems one of these nephews started to harass Ernie and he'd called on my friend to step in. I knew Ernie about 30 years ago! While of course homosexuality was known about, at that time it was never really discussed. I was shocked when I heard about Ernie being gay. Shocked because I never knew, nor did anyone else. Ernie being gay didn't ever take away from the good he did for Scouting in our area. I camped with him on several occasions we shared a tent. I never felt in any way uncomfortable. I would hope that if I'd known I would have felt the same way. We might not like to talk about it but I know that back when I was a young Scout myself and the other Scouts about my age were involved in what might be called "Experimentation"? We were guilty of sneaking copies of magazines like Play Boy. We had just discovered masturbation, we wanted to find out who had the "Biggest". We never thought about being gay or straight. We did know that we wanted to find out more and couldn't wait to fed on the forbidden fruits that magazines like Playboy was showing. I don't know when someone decides their sexual orientation? Sex is a wonderful thing, but it has its place and time. I enjoy having a few adult beverages, but when I with scouts or on a Scouting activity I'm happy to wait till the activity is over. Maybe in time some of the Scouts I serve will grow to enjoy the odd adult beverage. But even though they might want to jump the gun and try drinking now. They will have to wait. Will a few try and sneak? I think they will. But both as a parent and a Scouter I have done what I can to explain why they shouldn't and not allow them to drink. There is always alcohol in my home. I suppose that OJ could have at any time sneaked some and taken it to camp with him. Are we going to have kids who come from homes where there is alcohol around sleep in separate tents? All Scouts male or female are expected to refrain from sexual activities until they are old enough and even then there is a time and a place for this sort of thing. Scout camp is not the time or the place. I don't care if it's gay sex or straight sex. Eamonn.

"To play Devil's Advocate for those who state "help other people at all times," remember we also promise 'to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight" Not really sure what you mean? Are homosexuals less physically strong and mentally awake than anyone else? There has been a big fuss in some denominations about the appointments of gay Bishops. While I'm not gay and not a Bishop! I wonder if these guys feel that they are doing something wrong? Ea

Kinda what Jersey Scout posted. In the UK we have the Casualties Union http://www.casualtiesunion.org.uk/photos_dec03.html They do a wonderful job of providing "Casualties" for First Aid Meets. The District I was in back in London used them every year. A few Scout became interested and joined. Have Scouts learn to be a casualty tie is a great way of teaching first Aid. (Chicken bones work great.) Eamonn.

It is hard for me to answer the question without allowing my own opinions and biases in. I think we all would have to take a long hard look at the way we explain "Morally Straight." Some Units might need to take a look at "Duty to God" Some MBC might need to rethink how they go about handling the Family Life Merit Badge. Nearly all of the older Sea Scouts I have talked with seem to hold the opinion that the BSA not allowing homosexuals to be members is not right. But when asked they say they are unsure how they would react to having an openly gay leader. At school they know that different kids belong to different groups. Most of these groups have to do with how the group dresses or the music they like, in our local HS there is a group of deeply religious kids and there are kids who have "Come Out" Saying that they are gay. From what I see and hear older youth don't seem to have a problem with this or with the kids who have said that they are gay. When OJ was 15 we had his birthday party at the pool in the club. One of hid friends was a really nice Lad who was openly gay. He was treated as maybe being a bit of a joke?? But the feeling I got from seeing everyone in the pool was that he was accepted as just being a friend of the kids who were at the party. A good pal of mine who is a leader in the UK and is also a member of the LDS Church, is still scouting in the UK. The District he is in has an openly gay District Commissioner. As you can imagine this isn't going over very well. But talking with some of my other pals in that same district, while they are not happy with the job the guy is doing as the District Commissioner, his being gay has nothing to do with how the feel. I'm a little unsure how we can make an oath that states "To help other people at all times" and then bar people from joining? As for all this talk about sleeping arrangements and the like? As I see it inappropriate behavior is just that. I have taken female Sea Scouts away and while of course I'm aware that they are girls!! I don't treat they any different than the boys. Fact is that they don't want to be treated any different. I wasn't around when the USA had areas for whites and areas for colored. I'm sure when these were finally put to rest, that there were a few problems and maybe some unhappy people. Yet somehow, someway we managed to get past all the problems. In fact with hindsight most people now see that what was allowed to happen was just wrong. My hope is that in time we will see that discriminating against anyone is never right. Doing something that is not right just because we fear we might upset groups that want to discriminate? Can't ever be a good thing. Eamonn.