Eamonn

Have just got word that my old Scout Group is no more. I feel really down in the dumps about this. It is like the loss of a really good friend. I joined the Wolf Cubs in the 24th Fulham (Sands End) in 1963. I don't know but at that age you don't know a good program from a bad one. I know that I had fun and became a Sixer of the Red Six. We seemed to go through Cubmasters at an alarming rate. But it was fun. I earned my Leaping Wolf and leapt into the troop. I remember being very excited but I cried. In them days in England you went from the Pack to the Troop on your 11th birthday. The 24th was never much of a troop. It never seemed to keep a Scoutmaster for long. The Group Scout Leader was a super nice man. He would step in and look after things when we were between Scoutmasters. Still most troop meetings became a game of tag on the gym set in the school. Then along came the Advanced Party Report. Everything was changing and this was too much for the Group Scout Leader. The Group closed. I was upset as I was the holder of the SPL rank. Not that it meant very much. About this time my family moved from one end of town to the other. I was a teenager and a little on the wild side. Dad was just becoming a very successful business man. He worked really long hours and I was lucky to see him for ten minutes a day. We did manage to go to church. But I was an alter boy so even that didn't always work out. He was a great man. He loved all four of his kids. But both him and my Mother had come from Ireland and were trying to prove that "Paddy"could do well. I was just starting to run with the wrong crowd. When the old Group Scout Leader came to the house. He said that all the funds from the 24th were being given to the 17th Fulham (Pioneers) and he thought that as they were getting our money they ought to get our Scouts. So I joined the 17th. At first it was a shock. These guys were good they really did Scout stuff. Soon I was hooked. The Scoutmaster was my hero. I really wanted to do everything that I could to please him. The Group was very wealthy. I mean very wealthy. One of the Leaders had died in a Japnese POW camp during world war two. Those who came home wanted to build a memorial. So they build our own Scout HQ. Even after it was build they just kept on with the fund raising. I was active with the troop and earned my Chief Scouts Award. Then went on into the group Venture Unit.Earning my Queen Scouts Award. I somehow got involved with helping the Cub pack that was part of my church and was a happy little Assistant Cub Master. Then the Committee members of the 17th came around the house. Like a posse. They said that the Troop was ready to close due to lack of membership. My old Scoutmaster, who had once been so active had at the age of 39 gone and found himself a wife. I was happy doing what I was doing with the pack. But who could say no. I felt that I owed my Troop something. In fact I knew that I did. The next 12 years were the best that I ever spent in Scouting. At the very start I remember spending a month at the HQ and not seeing a soul. Then two boys came in and asked what was happening? I said that we were restarting a Troop. They asked if they could just stay and kick a soccer ball around. I said sure. One boy Mike was a very tall 13 year old the other was even taller and was from Jamacia. The two of them came back two days later, and just kicked a soccer ball around the hall. The next week we were up to six. I never pushed the program until the district five a side indoor soccer competition came around. I said that they would all have to be Scouts and I would have to meet with their parents. Yes a troop was reborn. I found my self in the housing estates where I was the only white person. Soon we had the most diversified troop in London. Of course at that time I had never even heard of diversity. They were just a great bunch of kids first and a great troop second. Some of my old Venturing pals joined and soon we had an outstanding group of adults. And all the time the committee were making money. The troop grew and grew at 89 members it had out grown the meeting hall so we split it. Not long after I got married and two years later moved over here to the USA. Sad to say about this time the prices of houses went through the roof and soon everyone was moving out of London. The troop wasn't doing well. It amalgamated with another troop and was doing ok. Then the Scoutmaster a young man died of cancer. It has struggled along with just a pack for the past few years. But there are just no kids in that part of town. The family homes are now yuppie apartments that sell for about a half a million dollars. I went over last year to see what could be done to save the building. It is worth millions. The idea was to get a venture unit up and running. But it didn't work. The District has now closed the group. They want to keep the HQ for district activities. If they don't the building will be sold and the money will go to the national Assiocation. I am still a trustee of the building. Sad thing is that I know that it won't be long till the District is gone. As I say I'm upset about the death of my troop. Still even with all the money and all the equipment a Scout Group or troop is made up of Scouts and if the truth were told. It died a long time ago. Eamonn

While it may seem that this is all fine and dandy. I fail to see how it will in any way foster tolerance and acceptance. Big-Dog makes a lot of sense. It seems to me that when Scouting is doing what it does best - Good Work and Good Works in and for the community. That is fine. But when it comes down to a few dollars we stop being the good guys. It would be great if the Capital Area Council could raise twice as much without the United Way. It would be even better if all those who stop donating to the United Way would write to them and say why they have stopped. We in our area are lucky in that the United Way knows if they mess with the BSA, that the press would have a field day. Local businesses would stop collecting the pledges. Times are tough enough now everyone is watching where their money is going. The people who give the money, not some board will have the last word. I bet if that were to happen we would see a new take on "Tolerance and Acceptance." Eamonn

Ed is right. It now seems that there may be a link to this outbreak and another down south. A few years back there was a case where it was traced back to melons. It seems that there were no facilities provided. Dave. I do hope that your brother is on the mend. After I had an appendectomy the Doctor said that I was on no account to run the vacuum cleaner. This was/is a rule that I have kept. It has been 18 years and I now am feeling a lot better. I feel sure that lack of small appliance usage has helped a lot. As to the idea of Tongue Sanitation. This is not new. Some years back I remember Sister Mary Matthew giving my tougue a good sanitation when I had used foul language. Sad to say while for the most part it worked. Every now and then the odd "Germ" slips out. Eamonn.

We had a Scout Exec. Who was very much like the one that Twocubdad has described. He was with us for a good while but he never seemed to warm up to us. He did a good job with the budget. While from what I hear from the other staff, he would never win a popularity contest. He did for the most part get the job done. At least from where I was standing. However his lack of communication skills did not sit well with the executive board and in the end they dismissed him. This might have had more to do with him and the Council President not seeing eye to eye then was ever said. Eamonn

I have been trying hard to understand all the dialogue from those who are "Pro Troop Rules" I am having a hard time. Could be that I have a birthday this month and the little gray cells are not up to snuff. But I just don't get it. First I come from a place where there are expected standards of behavior. I expect people to be well mannered. There is no "Please and Thank You" Rule. This is just expected behavior. I don't wear my hat in any building not because it is a rule. But somewhere back in my history I was led to believe it was bad mannered. While the air around me does get a little blue at times. This is normally when something has gone wrong. I know that it is wrong and I really do everything possible to ensure that it never happens around young people. When someone is trying to communicate with me I do my best to pay attention. I expect the same courtesy. If you want to talk to me I will remove my Walkman or stop using the computer. Just as I would put down or stop making a woggle or the newspaper. Do I need a rule that says no Walkman, Computers, rope, or newspapers? What might help me out a lot would be if those who do have written Troop Rules would share them with me. Maybe if I could see them in black and white I might not be so bewitched, bemused and bewildered. It would also be a big help if you would explain why you have each rule. Many Thanks Eamonn

While I agree and echo all the sentiments so far. I do feel that it is great that Scouts and Cub Scouts are alive and well in this "Nuclear Free Zone." As these young people become the leaders I have to wonder what their feelings will be when they take charge. Will this protest leave an impact on them? I happen to think that it will. Todays protest. Tomorrow's bad memory. Eamonn

So when are we going to change the Mission of the Bsa from "To make ethical choices." To "Follow the Rules of the Troop." ? I have been around for a little while and have dealt with a vast number of boys. I like to think that in my own little way I have given them the opportunity to learn and practice leadership. Over all these years I have never had a Patrol make up a set of Patrol Rules. Yes there have been times when the PL has asked someone to stop doing something or asked someone to get something done. Please note that he asked not ordered. I suppose he could have gone to the PLC and had a full set of dos and don'ts listed in the minutes. He could have used these rules to get the job done. I happen to think that this is not true leadership. Eamonn

Sad to report that there has been a very nasty outbreak of Hepatitiss A. In our area. It seems to have started at a restaurant where the staff were not washing their hands after using the rest room. I know that many of our camp sites have come a long way with improving the bathrooms. But I have to say that most of the camps that do now have running water and hand dryers still do not provide soap. I did ask all the Scouts who went from our area to the Jamboree to carry hand sanitizer with them. We also included it in our Patrol Boxes. So that the cooks could use it before preparing any meals. While in most cases Hepatitis is not fatal there has been one death linked to this outbreak. Eamonn. "A Scout is clean."

Wow Way To Go!! Great Job so far. The big thing to remember is that even us old folks are pulling for you. We are your friends. I have sat on a good many Eagle Boards Of Review. Some of the "Stuff" That seems to come up. Know the Scout Oath and Law. Know it off by heart. Someone may ask which Scout Law is the most important to you? Be Honest. A lot of times people ask what your future plans in Scouting will be? Though not on any BOR that I have ever sat on I have heard of a guy who asks if the Scout has a clean hankerchief? Not so sure about that one - The Asker was a lot older then me. Some people spend a lot of time asking about Merit Badges. - Make sure you know which ones you have earned. Some people dwell on what you are doing for the younger Scouts in your troop. As a rule in our District the Advancement Chair has a copy of the project and all the paper work and we have gone over it before the Scout comes into the room. My pet question is What is the most important thing that you have learned as a Scout? Good Luck Eamonn

Question to all the Rule Makers. How does your rule making fit into the mission of the BSA? Yes I do live in a utopian cloud where I do believe that when we explain and teach there is no use in tomes of rules. Eamonn

While I have never yet had to deal with anything like this. I do feel your pain. However I really feel for the Scout. How does a 14 year old feel when Mom just will not let go? This Lady clearly has some problems. Still we are not in the Mom Fixing Business. Her problems are hers. I would do everything possible to nudge the plc into having as many meetings as possible away from the troop room. Left Right Hikes - Scavenger Hunts anything so that she is left sat sitting there by her lonesome. She might get really bored and stop turning up. All the Good people will tell you to sign her up. Sad to say I am not that good. I happen to think that she is a pain now and if you sign her up she will still be a pain. What you might want to do is sign up the Father of the Scout. That way you will not be getting between the Scout and his parent. Maybe him being there will prevent her interfering? That is of course if Dad is allowed around his son? You sure as heck do not want to lose a Scout. It maybe that someone (Troop Committee Chair? Scoutmaster?) has to bite the bullet and take her aside and really explain the harm that she is doing not only to her son but to the entire troop. This can be done in such a way that she is given no room to move, but in a nice way. Eamonn

Ok I admit to not following all the stuff about the COR someones mother? It has been a long day!! I have for sometime thought that Councils and Districts have too many activities. The District that has my services?? Used to have 3 Camporees. A First Aid Meet. A Mall Show. The Council has a Council Event every forth year, the year after the Jamboree. We have cut the Camporees down to two and have the First Aid Meet at the Mall Show. When the idea came up there were those who felt that we (The District) were letting the units down, and these events were for some units the only outdoor program offered to the Scouts. It was pointed out that it is not the job or the role of the District to provide the program. This is up to the unit. Add to this the fact that we had a hard time finding people that we could ask to volunteer to run these events. Our District Chair. Has this thing about Not asking unit leaders. He feels that it takes away from the time that they have to be with their unit. He is very hard nosed on this one. While District and Council events can be fun and do offer an opportunity for everyone to see each other and get to know each other. They should in no way get in the way of the unit program. This gets us to the unit program. All the dates of District and Council events are given out a long time in advance. Sad to say the theme of these events is not always posted. When the PLC meets at the Annual Planning Meeting, they might decide to pencil it in and see what sort of theme it will be. If it suits them they are of course welcome to attend. If it doesn't fit that is all well and good. We as a District are here to support the unit. We should never ever get in the way of the unit or the program of the unit. I don't know about the COR and his mum. But in my book it is "GO PLC GO" Eamonn

Thanks Mike F I did read the link that you posted. Some powerful words. All of them true. Eamonn

I tend to think that we have it covered by what we have. I have a hard enough time keeping these 12. Still I over the years heard and seen ideas for a 13th Law. The one that comes to mind first is "A Scout is hungry" Hungry for knowledge. Hungry meaning keen,eager and ambitious. Eamonn

As we get closer to Veterans day. I seen this. I do not know how accurate or if it is even true. Still if it is I have to say "Way to go Colin!!" When asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our Iraqi plans were for empire building Colin Powell repiled "Over the years the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return" Eamonn

With all the talk about "Rules" I just thought that this was worth looking at again Eamonn

Strange how as soon as I seen the title of this thread I knew who the author was. I will also bet thay you knew that I would post. First let me say that having you here in the forums and as a friend has and does mean a lot to me. Even if you do have to put up with me venting. You do add an insight to these pages that I know many of us are very grateful for. A lot of the time some of us volunteers are a very unappreciative bunch. We at times suffer from a "Them" (The Pros. - "The Council" and "Us" ( The Volunteers. And at times those who are odds at the Council.) As you know I have a lot of dealings with the Pros. Most of the people who work for the BSA are outstanding. Ok so they get a pay check. I don't in any way hold that against them. I run with the idea that there is no them and there is no us. Only a We. We are in this game together. We can make it work or not work. The realationship between the Pros and the Volunteers is and has to be a partnership. It would be easy to say that the Pros are going the extra mile with popcorn, because they need it in order to get paid. But as you and I know that money will be used to help fund the entire program. That program is for our "End user. - Our youth. Some things that I think we need to look at are. This is not in any order of importance. Ensure that everyone is informed and working on the same page. How very often I get a message from our DE. Telling me that "They" need something done ASAP. Which is at times a problem in it self. But this is made worse because some of us have no idea that it had to be done. Why it is being done? If we have no ownership in whatever it is. Please don't expect us to give it 100%. It is not going to happen and does fuel all sorts of negative feelings. If something doesn't work. Stop doing it. The idea that we will give life to that dead horse is not only fool hardy. It is a waste of time. We all value our time. Please let us work together to fix what don't work. Spending time working on something that everyone knows isn't going to work results in burn out faster then anything else. Please schedule your work hours around the time when we are free. I know that it is a pain. But it is necessary. I in no way advocate that a Pro is to be at our beck and call 24/7. I am aware that there is work that goes on when we are not around and that a great deal is done during the office hours of 9 - 5. Sad thing is that is when we are working. A few "Shifts" of 2 -10. Work better for us. Not working one day during the week and being available on a Saturday is a good idea. Ok I know that no one wants to work weekends. But we need to think out of the box. Please don't treat us like mindless idiots. Even though we may not have had the same in depth training that the Pros have taken. We do have a brain. Please tell us it like it is. We know when we are are being treated like a mushroom. When the truth is dressed up, we have a nasty habit of thinking that we are being lied too. We don't like it. Even when the news is not that great we are adults and can handle it. We are also more willing to help put whatever it is when we know where we stand. Remember that we are in this for the youth. Your career is up to you. We don't do what we do to make anyone look good. Dave. None of this is directed at you as a person. I hope you don't take offense. Hand on my heart: None is / was intended. My BIG thing is that we have to push the idea of us being in a partnership. We all have stong points and some that are not so strong. As a team we can make up for the not so strong and make good things happen. By the way we do popcorn next Saturday. Sad to say while our District made it's goal.We are the only District to do so. As a council we are down by approx. 10%. But our membership is down. So we have less sellers. This has been/is a very tough year. Eamonn

I must be getting old. I thought that I added my two cents to this thread. In a very similar thread I said (Well at least I think that I said?) That English Scout Patrols had been doing this for years and on campsites that were owned bty the Scout Assoiation. One summer out troop had a patrol camp at Gilwell Park for a week without any troop leadership. Yes the service team and the camp staff did keep an eye on them. When I spoke of this to a very near and dear friend who happens to be our council VP Program. He said that it couldn't be done. Can't wait to "Rub His nose in it". He is a very big strong lad so I will have to have m y running shoes on. Eamonn

In the very near future we will be holding our first meeting with the Scouts and parents that have signed up for the National Jamboree. Already I'm getting E-mails asking qustions. (Most have been about uniforms) While I think that I have a good idea about what information I will pass on at this first meeting. What would you want to know? If you have taken a troop before what do you wish you had covered or did cover and were glad that you did? I aim to have the "National List" Of equipment and stuff that I know we used and needed last Jambo. FYI. The drive to Fort AP Hill is only a few hours. We will be using BSA Wall Tents. "Standard?" Patrol Boxes. We have a camp table which when assembled has benches. It works but is a pain to assemble, I'm thinking of buying folding tables that are not too expensive and asking if the Scouts can bring their own chairs. Most of the Scouts brought Foot Lockers last time. I strongly sugguested that they buy a cot. All did !! I also sold them a fanny pack that had two water bottles. Would a Camelbak be better? Any and all ideas are welcome. Thanks Eamonn

"More carrot, less stick" I have never heard this before. I think that it is outstanding. Thank you Wallace. Eamonn

Think that I might have mentioned that I am a Queens Scout. As of today I serve as a District Chairman and Council Training Chairman. I think that the Nomnating Committee will keep as the District Chair. My "Term Of Office" As Training Chair. comes to an end at the end of the year. Then I off to join the Regional Staff to help promote and organize the two troops that we are sending to the world jamboree in 2007. After that I don't know. This year I got to be the Course Director for a Wood Badge Course. That was really "cool". I will be one of the Scoutmasters for one of the National Jamboree Troops from our council in 2005. Eamonn

My heart goes out to his wife and sons. I will remember them in my prayers. This is just so very sad. Eamonn

Saltheart, My problem is with those who work to establish rules. Here is my thinking. First we have a set of rules in the Scout Law. I tend to think that they cover just about everything. The problem when we try to make rules is that we can never cover everything. Today it's a cell phone then a Lad brings a pager then it's a PDA, and the list grows till we have something the size of an elephant. We need to keep an open mind and remain flexible and work with our youth rather then set about making rules. My other problem is that in most cases when we have a rule we also have a consequence for not keeping the rule. This consequence is looked upon by the Scouts as a punishment. While a parent may have the right to punish, I don't think that this is a place where Scout Leaders want to or need to go. While this is a little off topic. Last Jamboree. Due to my concern about security. I as the Scoutmaster (after not talking to the PLC) Said no CD players, but in keeping with the Jamboree guidelines I said that a small radio was ok. The Patrol Leaders came to me and said that they thought that this was unfair. I explained that I thought that a CD player and a bunch of discs might be a temptation. Also that if someone had their walkman taken that they would be upset. They put forth a good case for allowing them on the bus and at night. As it so happened we had a VCR on the bus and I took along a few tapes. I didn't see anyone wearing a walkman. Nor did I see anyone wearing one during the day at the Jamboree. There was a dictatorial rule made by me. Which proved to not be what the Scouts wanted. They went through the correct process and had it changed. In fact there was no rule, no consequence to be put in place. Don't you think that these Lads learnt far more out of this then if we had just had a rule because I said so ? Eamonn

We have the Scout Law. Do we need to add to this? Over the years I have seen and heard of all sorts of rules that someone thought up and tried to force upon our youth. Find me a situation that isn't covered by the Scout Law. Eamonn

"Troops are free to set rules of conduct" Where does it say that? I have never seen that troops can set any rules that are not covered by the BSA. I can't see any reason why anyone would ask for a phone to be left in a car. I do ask adults, Scouts and anyone if they would turn the phone to silent mode, when it might interfere with something. I have also asked that if they need to take or make a call that they do it at the appropriate time and place. I think that Scouting would be better served if these tyrannical rule makers would try reading and implementing the program of the BSA it is they who maybe don't belong to Scouting. As Bob White has not posted in this thread, I fail to see the need for your snide mention of his name. Is this what Scouting is about? No it is not. So please stop it. Eamonn