Eamonn

"What is a Council provisional charter? What things would have to occur to issue a provisional charter to a council" As a rule provisional charters are given to Councils that the Area Committee deems to be failing. Most times the Area Committee looks at Membership and finances. I'm not sure what or how other Area Committees work? I've only served on the one!! We meet about every 3 months. There are 13 Councils is the area we serve. An Area Vice-President has normally met with the key 3 of each Council to see how things are going. He reports back to the Committee. We grade each Council from A -D. a "D" would result in a Council being given a Provisional Charter. We have given these to Councils who are deep in debt or who are losing a lot of members. This really is a wake up call to the Council Key 3 and the Executive Board that things have to improve. The Council I'm in was issued a provisional charter after we fired a Scout Executive. The reason given was that our then Council Key 3 were not meeting. Which was true, the Council President and the Scout Executive couldn't stand the sight of each other. Each year before the presentation of a Council Charter, an Area VP is to meet with members of the Council Executive Board for a Charter Review. Of course most Area VP's can only go by the reports they are given. Eamonn.

" In the BSA's case, the policies that the members set are that the BSA is to honor and respect the goals and aims of the CO, and offer Scouting resources in service of those goals" This kinda sounds like it is from some official BSA material? If so where can I find it? Eamonn.

A lot of the answers can be found in Standard Local Council Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws. Article IX. Local Units states: The executive board shall review or shall authorize some committee or person to review all applications for new charters or renewal of charters by community or charted organizations within the corporations territory and shall forward the recommendation with respect to each such application to the national office of the Boy Scouts of America. District Membership Chairs/ Committees can do the leg work when it comes to starting new units but the agreement with the CO and the BSA needs to be signed by a representative of the BSA. When I read the new unit application. I see: "... is to promote through cooperation with other agencies.." This is not the same as "only exists to assist community agencies and serve them as the community agencies run a part of their youth outreach" At the risk of rambling or ranting. Membership in the BSA is a privilege not a right. Membership can be revoked. Councils can have their charter revoked, Units can have their chartered revoked as can individuals. What can be done and what is done? I'm not sure if this is a good example or not. I like to think I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and do my best to fulfill my obligations. I have friends who are catholic but rarely go to mass and don't do much to support the church. There have been cases where the PP we had at one time refused to marry people like this in our church. He can do this because he has the authority to do so. He doesn't have the authority to excommunicate, this would need to come from Rome. I'm not sure how far things would have to go before a membership would would be revoked? I have sat on the Area Committee and the committee has voted on issuing Councils provisional charters. When I was District Commissioner we had a Venture Crew, which we didn't feel was the "Right Fit". They opted not to recharter, but I think if they hadn't we would have made the recommendation that sign off on their charter renewal. Eamonn.

I really wasn't talking about the Girl Scouts. I was trying to say that what is relevant to someone might not be to someone else. If we say that we are going to make something more relevant. Are we in fact saying that something no longer has relevance? This is the case in the Sea Scout manual where it talks about the Radio Operators Permit. Back when I was a SM in London, Scouts had to know the locations of where public phones were. In this day and age with so many cell phones that is no longer as important as it once was. Then we have to look at what is relevant to who/ whom? Some things to my mind would always remain on the list: Citizenship, Physical fitness, Leadership, the Oath and Law. I suppose there is a temptation to follow trends. This can be a big mistake as trends come and go. Eamonn.

To be fair to the DE and maybe the Council?? Over the years for different reasons Crews have started in the District. Some never really ever got off the ground, again for various reasons. At the end of 2005 four Venturing Crews didn't recharter. All of these were Crews that were spun off from Troops. To the best of my knowledge we have one "Stand alone Crew" It came into being out of a Troop that folded. The Advisor is a teacher and is a very knowledgeable Scouter. He teaches a gifted math class in a local HS. When the Crew started he hand-picked the members and the school allowed them to meet as a School Club. They had a really good first year. Lots of activities with over a 50% attendance at the activities. Things went so well that they went ahead and enlarged the recruiting area opening it up to anyone in the school. Soon they had about 70 youth members signed up!! Then the school said it was no longer going to allow them to meet as a School Club and things started to go down hill. The school did finally allow them to meet once a month. Now I hear that the teacher is moving to another school district. The Troop that folded did so because they were unable to find any adult leadership (The CO is a local church, but the Crew has little or nothing to do with the church) No one seems to know how many active youth members there are. Being as they met during school time, signing kids up wasn't hard, but with all the changes holding their interest will be hard. We have the Ship. There are two other Crews in the District, both affiliated with Troops. To date other than helping out at District Camporees they have never held an event that was just for Venturers. In the Council, I think we have two other real Crews. One is into shooting sports and the members get together not as BSA members to do an other activity. One is a Civil War reenactment group. The Advisor is into that but it seems it is not reaching out and recruiting any youth members. I kinda feel that the DE is trying to do something as something is (To his mind) is better than nothing. With so few people actively involved, there isn't that much interest and trying to recruit people isn't going to work. There is now talk of inviting the small Council next door!! I don't really know what the intention really is? I do know that starting a new unit isn't easy can be very hard work full of joys and frustrations, a one time event is not a quick fix. Eamonn.

I thought this was funny. A few weeks back the word went out on Sea Scout NET. That Sea Scouts were to be on one of the early morning TV shows. No one seemed to know when or on which channel? Sea Scouter's from across the land wanted to know so they could record the show. Finally it came to light that someone had got it wrong and the piece was really about Sea Scallops!! Holy mollusks Batman!! Eamonn.

I really have never had much dealings with the GSUSA. I agree whole-heartedly with the statement: " "prepare every youth in America to become responsible, participating citizens and leaders who are guided by the Scout Oath and Law." To recruit quality leadership, adequately fund programs, invite youth from all backgrounds to join, and offer a fun and exciting program, and to help ordinary young people become extraordinary adults." Have to admit it kinda sounds very much like the BSA Mission statement. I'm not going to try and answer: " Should BSA, with their decline in membership, investigate what they could do to be MORE RELEVANT? " In part because I don't agree that the relevance and membership are really linked. The question of what is and what isn't relevant? To my mind can't be easily answered. What might be relevant to me, might be totally ill-relevant to someone else to someone else. Things, places, ideas that were once very relevant (important?) can change, even over a very short time span. Isn't part of our job as Scouter's to help each individual Scout find what is relevant to him /her and come up with a program that holds the interest of the Scout and becomes more relevant. Our Sea Scouts who are or have been Boy Scouts have said that knots and rope work seem far more important in Sea Scouting than they were in Boy Scouting. I'm not a great lover of wearing neckerchiefs, but you bet I'm proud of my necker from the 17th, my world jamboree necker and my WB necker. Watching TV, I bet the people on the Island wished they knew more about fire by friction? I like to think that the core values of Scouting and the BSA will remain relevant. Sure some Scouter's at times can't see the forest for the trees and dwell on the small stuff. Back when I was a Scout, it seemed the Scouts with long hair were going to lead us to some-place that defiantly wasn't the happy land! A great pal of mine is never going to forgive the team that put the new WB course together, because they use power point!! At present the Sea Scouts in the Ship have a diverse area of interests, while we follow the Sea Scout program using the Sea Scout manual, the Scouts choose what is relevant to them and I see my role as helping them develop their interests and find new ones. Eamonn.

local1400 No of course you didn't offend me!! In fact I'm upset with myself that you think you did. In some ways I see this invitation to attend this event like being asked out to a dinner party, only that when you get there the only thing being served is hot-dogs and baked beans. Some people love hot-dogs and baked beans and maybe if the invite was to attend a cook out, hot-dogs and baked beans would be fine. As for District Camporees and District events? I have mixed feelings about them. The first things that come to mind are: Why have them? Do we need them? Back when I was serving at the District level. I have to admit that it seemed that we had four District Camporees on the calendar, because they had always been on the calendar. They do offer the Scouts an opportunity to see that they belong to something bigger than just their home unit and provide an opportunity for both the Scouts and the Scouter's to mingle and get to know each other. I have to admit I seen having four Camporees as taking away from the Troops own program. The argument against this was of course if the Troop feels that way they don't have to attend!! This led to a big long discussion about supporting the District. Some people did feel that Troops that didn't attend were not supporting the District. My feelings were and still are that the District is there to support the units and if Troop 666 is busy delivering the program and doesn't need or want to attend, the choice is their's. As for the need? Sadly in the District it became clear that Camporees and District events were in some Troops their program. Without Camporees, the Scouts would never get to go camping. As for the quality of the events? I think maybe because these events moved from the same spot on the calendar year after year and everyone knew when they were, some sort of a complacency set in and somehow it seemed that planning was something that just wasn't necessary. Sure at some stage someone came up with a theme mainly so that a patch could be ordered!! But I lost count of the number of times I arrived at the camp-site on Friday night and attended a leaders meeting where the agenda was "What are we going to do?" We did manage to improve our Camporees, by finding a strong District Activities Chairman and a committee. They didn't always plan all the events, but they did help and at times prod the people who were supposed to be planning the events. We did invite the organizers to attend District Committee Meetings and report on what was happening and after the event what had happened. SPL's were invited to attend the Boy Scout R/T and asked for their input, suggestions , ideas and were asked to take on responsibility for certain parts of the event. When we looked for ways to improve Camporees, we seen that we just weren't charging enough!! Everyone seemed afraid to spent anything on needed supplies and equipment, because that would mean charging more than $5.00!! Not having what you need to get the job done just doesn't work. We noticed that Scouts would return to their Patrol or Troop sites for lunch on Saturday and never return, only to be found tossing a football around in the parking lot!! So we included lunch. We used to have a Winter Camporee in January, but I pushed to do away with it, because of the poor quality of camping in some units. I was really scared that a Scout was going to get hurt. Sadly these Scouts hailed from units were they never would get the knowledge and skills needed for cold weather camping and by the time they get to camp it's too late to do much about preparing them. The District doesn't have the man-power to go into units and teach these Scouts and was never invited to do so. Man-power has a lot to do with what a District or Council can offer. When I served at the District level I was not connected with any unit. As District Chairman, I asked all the Committee chairs not to ask or invite Unit leaders to serve on committees. I thought and still think being a unit leader is a full time Scouting job. Maybe the real question is: Is having a poorly planned event, better than not having the event? I have never managed to watch all of the movie Groundhog Day, but when a Lad or a Lass joins Venturing I think they have expectations of doing new and more exciting things and facing new challenges. I have no idea where the idea for this Venturing Weekend came from. I know that since Her Who Must Be Obeyed has been ill that I'm not as visible as I have been in the past. But I still have a phone and e-mail, still no one asked me. Which being we have the largest membership of youth in this age group does seem a little dumb to me. The final word as to if we attend or not will of course come from our Quarterdeck. I'll try not to open my mouth!! Really!! I'll try really, really hard! Eamonn.

The answer can be found in the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America. Section 3. It is also found in the Articles of Incorporation Article 3. Used by Councils Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

At the risk of sounding like a miserable old goat. My role in Scouting is that of a unit leader. My job is deliver the program to the Scouts in the Ship. " Does the DE have a solid working knowledge of the Venturing program and how to leverage the youth of the program, Council Wide??? " I don't know what he knows. We don't have a Council VOA. As far as the District goes I think that the Ship is the only real active unit in the Venturing program and we are Sea Scouts. FScouter I kinda think that the DE has taken this on himself!! With so few real Crews and only one Ship, there isn't anyone to do the leg work. My feeling is that he feels he has to do something and this was the best he could come up with!! I'm not upset with him, I'm upset that this sort of Micky Mouse stuff passes as "The Venturing Program" Eamonn.

oldsm I was in no way trying to say that the driver was in any way impaired. Reading what has been posted it would seem that the police are still trying to find out exactly what happened. I don't know what happens in other states, but as far I know whenever there is a accident of this type the PA State Police always check for drugs and alcohol. I suffer from a very bad back and do at times use prescription pain killers which could impair my driving. As a rule I only take them at night, when I know that I will not be driving. As I posted I do feel for the person who was in charge of the vehicle, at the end of the day he or she was responsible for the vehicle. Eamonn.

I also feel sorry for the driver who hit the Lad. I do hope that no alcohol or drugs were involved. Some years back a Lady walked out in front of my Brother-in-laws truck. He hit her. She was in a coma for a number of years. It was early in the morning and he was on his way to work as was she. The police and eye witnesses all said it wasn't his fault. Still he suffered from a lot of sleepless nights and some sort of depression. The idea of harming a child is something I don't think I could live with. That poor driver is also in need of our prayers. Eamonn.

I suppose I ought to say something!! Let's start with the: Membership in the BSA is a privilege not a right. The BSA owns the program. When we sign up as leaders we agree to deliver the program. I might be very good looking and very gifted (Don't I wish!!) but I don't have the authority to change the program. While I wish more CO's took a more active role in Scouting, I kinda think if we were honest we'd have to admit that most Executive Officers know diddle about the program and their big concern is what shape the meeting hall is left in when the Scouts go home. Most of the changes/ alterations/ tweaks that are made to the program are made with the very best of intentions. In another thread we have the Troop that has changed the uniform. Some forum members don't see this as a bad thing. It seems that when we read of the Scout who is being grilled and retested at a BOR, we think this is not the way it should be done. Some time back some one posted a link to a very large multi-page document of Troop rules and regulations. Many of these Troop rules and regulations dealt with attendance and set a percentage needed in order to advance. Some seemed to just echo what can be found in any Boy Scout or Scoutmaster Handbook. I'm not sure when a Scout unit who strays from the program ceases to be a Scouting unit? Our church has a youth group and also charters a Pack and a Troop. The Troop is fairly new; about six or seven years old, they seem to follow the BSA program use the methods of Scouting. Other older Troops in the District say that they do this because they don't know any different. Many of the Boys in the Troop also belong to the youth group. I'm sure at the end of the day both the youth leaders and the Scout leaders share many of the same ideals. The youth group is very much in the hands of the people who are involved. They do of course answer to the Parish Council, but other than that they are free to do what they like. The Scouts who are in both seem to know that there is a difference. Some of the youth group leaders have said to me that they find the Scouting program to be too structured. The Scouter's have said that they like the structure!! Eamonn.

local1400 Planning a worth while event really isn't that hard. We should however try and cater for the age group we are trying to serve. What might be fine and dandy for a Tiger Cub, becomes the same old same old when the Lad becomes a Webelos Scout. We seem to understand this when it comes to Cub Scouting. However when it comes to Venturing, it seems that we are to either do nothing or when we do get off our duffs, we want to recycle Boy Scout activities. Many of these kids have been in Boy Scouting, some still are. If they wanted to do Boy Scout stuff they would have remained in Boy Scouting or they can do it with the Troop. Sure inviting an all girl Crew to come up to camp would provide them with new and exciting things to do. Many of the Scouts have done the Brown Sea Island type camp, Dutch oven cooking isn't new to them. They crave and need new challenges, new activities, adventure and something that sets them apart from being Boy Scouts. I can't think of anyone that I know who thinks of Boy Scouts as being big Cub Scouts, so why do we think of Venturers as being big Boy Scouts. To be very honest we as a Ship as so darn busy with our own program and the programs offered by the flotilla that we don't have time to participate in Micky Mouse events. While we are happy to invite Crews and Troops to events that we are holding, we don't have the equipment or the man-power to take on large events. We are located in one of the best possible areas for all sorts of activities. You name it and I'll bet I can get a bunch of kids there. We have wonderful trails for hiking and biking, caves, lakes, gun clubs, a big city 45 mins away. With all this so close at hand another weekend up at camp just shows total lack of imagination. Or sheer laziness. Eamonn.

How very tragic and how very sad. My heart goes out to the Lad's family, friends, fellow Scouts and that entire community. A few weeks back our community suffered the loss of a great kid. I was deeply touched last night when the chorus at the Christmas Concert dedicated the concert to him. I'm not willing to discuss the bold print and the fine print. I have now adopted a new rule in our house, that no matter when OJ goes out I tell him to be careful and that I love him. God forbid anything should ever happen to him, but if it should there will be some comfort in knowing that when we parted my last words were meaningful. Eamonn.

matuawarrior Man oh Man it's great to hear from you!! Glad things are going well. Bob White was posting on Merit Badge.com for a while. I haven't been there for a while. My Buddie Dave Steele, was given a hard time by another pro who was at that time posting. So he changed his name (with permission) Sadly he quit working for the BSA. He moved and is trying to get his first book published -I owe him an E-mail. Korea Scouter, did post something here a few weeks back. He is a wonderful resourse. I'm still here using way too many words and saying very little!! OJ, did get his Eagle at the ripe old age of 17 years and 11 months. Rory is now 90 pounds. I have a new found love !! Sea Scouting. Her Who Must Be Obeyed, has had a rough time with cancer, but she only has one more chemotherapy to go. For which we are both really grateful. I have to admit that I miss Bob White and hope that he will one day return, but the choice is his. He did join Sea Scouting and about the same time started a new business venture. Last I heard he was doing well and enjoying both. If Pacific Harbors don't need your talents and you feel like moving to PA. I know a Sea Scout Ship that would welcome you in a heart beat. Eamonn.

I'm not going to lose any sleep no matter what color loops people decide to wear on what color shirt. I do however feel that we as adult leaders should set the example. If we know what we are doing is not the way it should be done? Are we really:Trustworthy,Loyal,Obedient? If we think that by allowing Scouts to wear the non-approved uniform (please replace with what ever term you like.) That he is going to be placed in situations where he is made uncomfortable? Are we really being:Helpful,Friendly,Kind, Courteous? Sure maybe the people who make him feel ill at ease need to work on their Scout spirit. Just to show that I'm not without sin -I did attend a WB beading in my Sea Scout uniform and wore my beads!! Yes I know it's 20 lashes with a wet woggle or worse yet I might have to walk the plank -Splash!! Doing it wrong? Seem to me to be a lot more hard work than just doing it right. Eamonn.

It's been a while. But I seem to remember that BALOO was never intended to be a course for leaders? Has this changed? I also seem to remember that Philmont offered courses that were Strictly For Scoutmasters - I wish I'd taken it in place of the Delivering Commissioner Service course I did take. Here again I have to say that even a Commissioner who has attended WB can spent a week at Philmont and come home with new skills. Wood Badge -No matter when you took it, where you took it or which course you took is still just a course. Let's not make it into something that it isn't. Eamonn(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

The DE called me today. I t seems that the District had wanted to do a Venturing weekend, but changed it to a Council event because we don't have the numbers. "When is it?" I asked "Sometime in April." He replied. " I'll talk to the Quarterdeck" I said. "Where is it I asked?" " Up at camp" He replied " I kinda think our Scouts are not going to be interested unless you have a really good program." I replied. " Oh - Well we don't have a real program, we thought we'd just open up the camp, maybe do some rappelling and use the rifle range." I reminded him that the last time we did this a couple of years back, that the turn out was good, lots of older Boy Scouts and it seemed very much like an OA weekend. "Well that's what's more than lightly going to happen this time" He said. OK, I suppose he gets something for some kind of effort. I'm sure the kids that do attend will have a good time. But.. Is inviting a bunch of older Boy Scouts up to a Camp to do the same things they did last summer and the summer before that really going to do much for Venturing? Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Some old codgers like myself, still talk about training's giving the participants "Tools" to take home that they can use when needed. I have to say I liked to old course notes that near the bottom of the page stated "I will use the skill of name the skill to do such and such". Before being put out to pasture, I had seen and staffed the new course a few times and will admit it changed the way I go about doing some things. But that is also true of the older courses. The old Cub Scout Trainer course did help me work toward being a better trainer. So the question is what did you take from Wood Badge that you use? It doesn't matter which course or where you use it. For example not just in Scouting but also in other areas I found that my understanding of Team Development has been a great help. I find it's easier to work through the stages than run around like a chicken with it's head chopped off wondering what or where I may have gone wrong. (I still do go wrong, but understanding that groups need to go through the "Storming Stage" helps.) This has nothing to do with the fun or the friends that you may have had or made at the course. Eamonn.

"And just who proposes the slate of those nominated to be on the Exec. Board? " This is done by the Council Nominating Chairman. Eamonn

When it comes to being a "Scouty type Scout" I'm fairly good. I love playing with knots, lashings,pioneering. hiking, map reading, orienteering, camping -All that good stuff. My splicing still needs work!! A lot of the things I enjoy most seem to be the things that a few forum members would like to see go! But we have flogged that horse!! I really enjoy a well ran camp fire and really enjoy just sitting around with a bunch of kids, mug of hot something in hand talking with them and looking into the embers. I hope they have campfires in heaven! If I ever get to sneak in!! Over the years I have been involved in a lot of Wood Badge courses. I have served as CD for the 21 st Century Wood Badge. Have taken and staffed the old Cub Scouter Trainer Course. Staffed nine or ten Boy Scout WB Courses and did my original Scout Course at Gilwell Park back in the early 1970's (I was very young!!) I didn't get to become a Scouty type Scout because of Wood Badge. My love of the Scouting and outdoor activities was born and nurtured long before I visited the happy land. I enjoyed the old Boy Scout course. But let's be honest, it seems to me that every course I ever staffed seemed to have one very weak Patrol. The one that was late with meals and the Patrol members didn't seem able to get their act together. They didn't have the skills and if you go back and look at the old course syllabus other than the commando belt (Splicing!!) No one staff member was ever available to teach any of the skills needed. It just wasn't there!! Sure there were times when Scouting skills were needed and required, but it was down to the Patrol to find a Patrol member who had the skill needed. Go back and look at the skills that were presented and you'll see the 11 Leadership Skills. The old course was a lot easier on the staff. Three times a day the staff would get to hang out in their site shooting the breeze while they waited for the Patrol member to come and escort them to the Patrol site for meals. Boy how I hated Chicken day, sure the staff had done a cooking display. But you can't learn to cook at camp, by visiting a display. Most of the Patrols were made up with a couple of Scouty type Scouts who did know what they were doing (One of these was the guy who got elected Patrol Leader at the end) A couple of guys who had some idea of what was going on and a few who had no idea. A lot of the time the guys who knew what they were doing ended up doing all the work, while the others were happy to just watch. Sadly most of the comments made about the new course are by people who haven't taken it!! The course does move along a lot faster than the old course, there is still 3 days camping as a Patrol, there still is Patrol cooking. But there is a lot more stuff crammed into six days then there ever was in the seven days of the old course. Back when I was District Commissioner I had a Unit Commissioner who was upset because he had to take the 21st Century course. He had not taken the old course, but insisted on calling it the sissy course!! Later he was upset with me not asking him to serve on Staff!! I wonder why?? I do at times wish that the new course wasn't called Wood Badge!! I'd be happy if the team who put the new course together hadn't tried to keep any of the old Wood Badge traditions or material. Looking at:http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-501.html Something doesn't make sense? It states that we have 51,469 Cub Scout Packs and 42,811 Boy Scout Troops, but Boy Scouters out number Cub Scouters?? Anyway we have 520,591 Boy Scouters and 23,380 Varsity Scout teams. That would mean that if the Wood Badge course were to focus on Boy Scouts skills we would serve 543,971. There is still another 602,159 adults out there. Of course these numbers don't take into account the numbers who have taken WB. I really think that the numbers are flawed, it seems to me that there are a lot more adults involved in Cub Scouting than Boy Scouting ( Even a small pack will have nine leaders and a committee?) Cub Scouters tend to have to deal with a lot more adults than Boy Scouter's and do need to be good leaders. I'm thankful that I had leaders that had the skills and were able to pass them on to me. But over the years I have taken more training's that I felt I could use. Back in October I went and took the LNT Trainers course, I took the camp fire leaders course at Gilwell, have worked with leaders who have skills that I thought I could use and tried work on improving my own. The idea that a week or a month spent at any training is going to equip anyone with all the skills is just silly. Eamonn.

There are of course Eagle Projects and there are of course Tickets. A worth while Ticket? The Ticket belongs to the person who wrote it. If he or she decides to change it? This ought not be difficult or a big deal. The Ticket starts with your (the owner of the Ticket) Values. Many of us in Scouting share the same values, we just might not all have them in the same order. For example: Some friends of mine give personal fitness a lot more attention than I do. Others see Duty to God as being at the top of their list. I might put being kind above being reverent and so on. Our personal values will play a very big part in how we serve Scouting and how we lead in Scouting and in life. These values will shape and give meaning to our vision. I think it's important that a Ticket is written about the position the person holds in Scouting at the time they are going to work it. When people who wear more than one hat try to write a ticket that covers multiple position there is no clear vision. The vision should be a picture of future success. Before you went to the course you started working on your Ticket!! Only you didn't know it!! In the pre-course assignment you were asked to think about your own vision of success especially as it related to Scouting. On day one you were asked to think about the young people who are currently involved in Scouting and imagine them in years into the future. Think back to the presentation about Cambridge University Chapel and the acorns. The real vision was the survival of the chapel. For a Ticket to be really worth while it is very important that the Ticket writer has a vision that engages the heart and the spirit. Leads toward something worthwhile. Gives meaning to the effort he or she will put in. Isn't too complicated! Is attainable. Of course if a vision is a picture of future success it is no more than a dream. "Nothing happens unless first a dream". A true leader will be able to create a compelling Vision, but must also be able to translate that Vision into a reality. If not it just remains a dream. This Mission is formed from the steps to make the Vision a reality. " A Vision without a mission is just a dream... A Mission without a vision just passes the time.. A Vision with action can change the world" Joel Barker. The Ticket should be a set of goals that helps turns your vision into reality. A Wood Badge Ticket is: * A Commitment * A vision of personal improvement. * A vision of how you will lead. * A set of goals. The Ticket should be guided by: * Your personal values * Your Vision * Your Mission. It also allows the participant a way to put into practice the skills learned from Wood Badge. While an Eagle Scout Leadership Service project is very worth while, very often it is done just to meet the requirement. When my son did his project he did it for the YMCA. While I'm sure he thinks the YMCA is a good organization he went to them and did the project because they were there and needed something done. Sure because it was a Leadership project he used a lot of leadership skills, many skills that are presented at Wood Badge. In many ways he was helping the whoever is in charge of the YMCA achieve their mission and help the YMCA move a little closer to their vision. At times I feel a lot of Wood Badge participants focus too much on the Ticket or should I say fail to see the real meaning of the Ticket. Sure it's a big part of the course, but if it is seen as just doing or meeting five goals I feel we have missed the real point. Eamonn.

epalmer84 Re: "We don't allow music and game devices and the like on campouts." To date our Ship has not made such a ruling. We had a 750 mile each way drive!! To be very honest, the Scouts plugged their Ipods into the car stereo system and I enjoyed it every bit as much as they did. I did request that they didn't make calls in the car and wait till rest stops to make calls. Which they did. I didn't tell them that they couldn't take their cell phones or Ipods with them when we took off for five days sea kayaking. For whatever reason they all opted not to bring them with them and left them at camp. The topic of cell phones,music players and game devices has come up a lot in the forum over the years. While it might be wrong of me? I see that we have two camps, one who seems to think that allowing this sort of stuff is just plain wrong and the other camp who just disagrees. I don't see the two ever coming together. There just doesn't seem to be any meeting of the minds. Eamonn.

I do have to respect the views of tominrichmond. I do however think that what was once seen as being taboo can and does change. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, the church takes a fairly easy to understand stand on homosexual behavior. At least my understanding of it is easy for me. 20 Odd years ago Her Who Must Be Obeyed thought that we should live together for a while before we got married. I have to admit the idea didn't sit well with me. It went against what I thought was right and I didn't think it would be accepted by my family and friends. Less than 10 years later my youngest sister moved in with a man. Together they had two really super kids, were together for about ten years and then decided to get married. My family were fine with the arrangement, both kids were baptized in the church. I think in part due to the TV and the media I have become more accepting of homosexuality, I do and can see how people of the same sex can have deep feeling for each other. I don't understand the sex bit, but I don't have to. When it comes to any sort of sex, I don't think that our youth members ought to be engaging in sex. I think it makes little matter if they are trying gay sex or heterosexual sex. Kind of like stealing. You ought not be stealing things. Of course the consequences for having unprotected sex are never good. I'm wondering how we might deal with a Scout who came up for an ESBOR and said that had contacted a STD from participating in unprotected sex? In the Ship we have a Lad who everyone seems to think is gay. If there is a way of acting gay? He seems to act that way. Thanks in part to the opinions from members of this forum. I decided that as a youth member he wasn't to be having sex (He is 17) and because he wasn't supposed to be sexually active, he couldn't be gay. Add to that he has never said that he is or he isn't. I know I'm guilty of falling into the "Don't ask, don't tell" guide lines. As a Ship we have (the Scouts) came up with a list of what was OK and what wasn't when it came to Open Signs of Affection. This list would work just as well with two Scouts of the same sex, as it does for two Scouts of opposite sexes. We do have female adult leaders at all of our activities. So far and as far as we know boys and girls wanting to sneak away to do anything hasn't been a problem. I don't think male leaders could do much if two Lads decided to do the sneaking! What was that song by the Kinks?? Eamonn.