Eamonn

How about: La Rejouissance, March & Gigue, Trumpet Tune In D Major,Rondeau or Toccata ? Of course as a fellow Brit he might enjoy playing the"King Arthur" overture! Eamonn

Over the years I have seen and read a lot of ceremonies that can be used. Some are better than others. Many are on line and aren't that hard to find. To my mind some go above and beyond what is needed. Take this Eagle Promise. No one is going to remember it the next day! We have a well thought out oath and Law, messing with the words is just that messing. Eagle Scout COH's are in the hands of the Scout who earned the Eagle. If he wants all this sort of stuff? That's great. If he wants his Grand-father who was never a Scout to read the words of the Eagle Charge -That's great -If he wants to re-write the charge so it has more meaning to him? More power to him!! Eamonn.

I suppose that there could be rare occasions when some people might not want others to know what is in their Ticket. Of course the Troop Guide would have to know what it is, being as he or she is the person who approves it Then the Ticket Counselor would also have to know. I was the Ticket Counselor for our Scout Executive. He had a very good ticket, but being as he was the SE (He has since moved.) We both felt it was better that it wasn't open to public scrutiny. I could see how maybe a person who serves on the Council Finance Committee could write a ticket, which might not go over well with the masses? How about the guy who serves on the Properties Committee, who as a ticket item does a feasibility study on Council Camps? I'm unsure what position our friend in the other Thread serves in? (I think he might be a unit Scouter.) If he is a unit Scouter, the Ticket should be goals that would better serve the unit he serves. A web site that meets that end should or could be about improving communication within the unit, maybe it could have links that might help improve the skills of the unit members? I only visited the site one time. I can't remember if indeed it was improving the communication within the unit or teaching skills? If it was I missed it!! At some time if a ticket has any real worth, someone should receive some benefit from the results of a ticket, some good should be passed on to the people or group that the Ticket writer serves, once this happens I think in most cases the group that benefits will notice. Eamonn.

In my view these things take away from the real oath and law. We have something that works. -Why try and change it? Eamonn.

"singing parts" ? You mean people sing? Man oh man I thought it was just a cheerful noise!! (Just joking!!) Eamonn.

scoutldr Take a look at: http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0009/d-news.html (Scroll down about half way) Not everyone donates to receive a James E.West. I in fact have two. One that was bought with money raised from the golf outing a friend of mine organizes and one that I paid for when I was upset with how the Council was managing finances. Eamonn

I do have: A Queens Scout Award, A Wood Badge, District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver,International Scouters Award, James E. West, OA Vigil Honor and a bunch of other awards.By this time next year I hope to add Sea Badge to the bunch. Some of these I did work toward. The Award of Merit,Silver Beaver and Vigil Honor were all unexpected. I was and am proud of them. It has been stated that I might be guilty of running for political accolades from my voting peers? What are these political accolades? Eamonn

"Is this disrespectful? " I'm not sure! On one hand they are after all your beads. You if you wanted to have a presentation of them, would have the last word as to where and when. The beads are just tiny bits of wood on a leather thong. A lot of people not in Scouting have asked me why I'm wearing a necklace. On the other hand. I know that I was overjoyed to have the participants from the course I directed invite me to their Beading Ceremony. I think the other members of both their WB Patrol and Troop were happy to share in the celebration. The ceremony doesn't have to be done on "The Boys Time" or at a COH. One Cub Scout WB Den held a reunion and all got their beads in a room at a motel!! If you don't want the other Scouter's to share in your celebration or feel that there is nothing to celebrate? Maybe having them mailed is the best thing! I'd hate to be invited to a celebration where the host wasn't into what was going on. As an organization we are very fortunate that people freely give of their time and resources. I am constantly in awe of the female Den Leaders who work full time have big families, look after the house, run around to look after aged parents, attend PTA meetings, do the flowers in the church, ring the bell for the Salvation Army, help where needed with Girl Scouts and still find time to stop in and visit my wife. Of course they would never complain or hold up what they do as being anything special. They seem to have a deep understanding of what "Do my best" means. Just as our Council Commissioner has never mentioned the $100,000's he has donated to the BSA and our Council over the year. He does this because he wants to and can. As to the web site? Again it's your site. I did visit it once, I wasn't impressed or upset. There are a lot of web sites that deal with Scouting, I'm sure that the people who put them together are proud of them, I hope that the people who use them find them helpful. If you are happy with the stuff you placed on your web site? I'm happy for you. I'm happy not to go back to it. It has nothing of any interest to me. Eamonn.

Christmas is a holiday, has been for a while. I don't see it not being a holiday anytime soon. In Her Who must Be Obeyed home they opened gifts on Christmas Eve. My family opened gifts on Christmas Day. Christmas remained the holiday. But our family traditions were different. We now visit her family on Christmas Eve and exchange gifts then, but keep the ones for the people and dogs who live in our house till Christmas Day. If at sometime in the future, OJ wasn't able to come home until the day after Christmas, we would wait till Boxing Day. The holiday would still be Christmas, but the tradition or way we celebrate it would be different. Very much the same can be said about Scouting, we all work toward the same vision and Mission, but how we deliver the program can be different and if we remain flexible can and should be youth led. Eamonn.

I didn't see this thread being about uniform? Uniform is a method in Cub and Boy Scouting. I see uniforming as a goal. If we accept (and not everyone does!!) that we do not the authority to alter or change the uniform, the goal should be to have everyone in full correct official uniform. How we go about reaching the goal is very important. Sadly it seems many units /leaders seem to have admitted defeat, said it can't be done and have made up a uniform of their own making. Which if they were to follow the guidelines the really shouldn't. Some units have taken a very strong arm approach; sending Scouts home if they turn up without their uniform o refusing to allow them BOR's. This is just as wrong as the units that make up their own uniforms. We as the adults should be looking for ways to have our youth members want to wear their uniform. We should do our best to set the example and be willing to help each Scout reach his own goal of being in full uniform. Of course just like Youth led, there will be times when it's real easy and everything just falls into place and on the flip side there will be times when it seems like it's never going to happen. A Troop from our District send 12 Scouts to the last Jambo. The parents of these Scouts all went out and made sure that they had at least two full uniforms. A few weeks after the Jambo I was invited to a COH. I was a little taken back to see about six of them not in uniform. I mentioned it to their SM,He said that they didn't like wearing Scout uniform! I said that I had not had a problem with it at the Jamboree. He said that was different that they were told that they had to be in uniform. I told him that wasn't what they were told. I had told them and their parents that all Scouts attending the Jamboree were expected to be in full uniform. Eamonn.

I have never had any dealings with other youth organizations, other than Scouting. I have over the years been told that what sets Scouting apart from other youth organizations is the involvement of youth leadership. As I see it (And I kinda think some don't see it the same way!!) When anyone joins an organization we agree to do our best to follow the rules/ guidelines/ call it what you will of that organization. Before joining we should make sure that the values of the organization are in line with our own personal values. When I look at the BSA and Scouting I find that my values and the values of the BSA are very much the same. I find the values of Scouting in the ideals of Scouting. I'm happy to serve as a member toward helping the BSA do what it can to make the Vision and mission of the organization become a reality. As an adult leader in the BSA I accept the methods used by the BSA for the program in which I serve. This isn't due or because of tradition, it's just to my mind playing the game by the rules. OJ plays for the HS soccer team. Before each game makes really wonderful pepperoni rolls, which she distributes to all the players. She has been doing this for four or five years. The players have come up with the idea that these rolls are in some way lucky?? The rolls have become a tradition, but the rules they play soccer by are from who ever sets the rules for HS soccer. A youth led (We have female Sea Scouts) unit is a goal I think we should all be trying to reach. In the time that I have been a forum member I'm sure just about everyone must be sick and tired of me going on about: "Train them, Trust Them, Let them lead" In my book every youth should have the opportunity to question whatever he or she wants, using the system that we have in place. In our case the monthly Quarterdeck Meetings, in Troops the PLC. While we do want them to show leadership and I would hope we try and provide the program (Activities) that they want, along with giving them the authority to set certain rules/ guidelines/... Our Quarterdeck decides what dues will be, how money raised will be spent or distributed, what the dress code for events will be. They decided what uniform we would wear. Being as Sea Scouting comes under Venturing, they have that authority. Some things however they really don't have the authority to change. They can't decide that they want to replace me!! My appointment didn't come from them, it came from our CO. There is a lot of things that as long as they belong to the Ship they are unable to do. While I would hope and do try to accommodate what they want, sometimes it just isn't possible. I do have a life and commitments outside of the Ship and I can't always be available to do things when they want, so if they need me to drive? They are out of luck. Being as we are a new unit, we don't have a history to fall back on. Still somethings seem to be becoming traditions. We always seem to stop at the first rest area in Maryland after leaving the PA Turnpike!! They have started calling it "Our Stop" on the way home we eat at Wendy's. We serve Dr Pepper at every QD meeting. They start each meeting with the Pledge and the Sea Scout Promise. They have come up with a rotation of who is in charge of the directions when we go places. For my part I think that the big thing to remember is that my role is to serve the Scouts in the Ship. I'm not here to serve some tradition that they don't want, like or require. When they ask for something that can't be? I do my best to explain why it can't be. Nearly always it seems that they respect the fact that someone has listened and is being honest with them. They or should I say some are not happy with the reason, but do try and understand. Telling a Scout that we are doing something or going to do something just because we have always done it!! Would in my view not be hearing what they are saying, not be being honest and would show a lack of respect. Lately I seem to be telling them that they will only get out of the Ship, what they put in!! If I were to start asking them to put into something that had little or no meaning to them. - They wouldn't be getting anything out and I'd be telling lies. Traditions are fine and dandy as long as it's fine and dandy with the youth members, when they are not they only serve to get in the way of the important stuff. Eamonn.

I think we all will have to agree that money is required to run a Council. If everyone stopped supporting the Council things might not run very well. Running a Council shouldn't be that much different than running a family home. (OK, there are some things different!!) Both Her Who Must Be Obeyed and I work. We do kinda count on the idea that both our jobs will be around for a while and that we are not going to do something silly and get fired. We own several properties that are rented out. When we look at what rent to charge, we look at what the expenses will be, that we end up paying (Taxes, maintenance, insurance and depreciation) I see this in the same light as the Council Camp. The people who use the camp should pay what it costs to run the camp. We know how much money will be coming in to our house. We make our budget based on this amount. It would be nice to have people to wait on us hand and foot, someone to cook and do all the cleaning. I'm sure I could get used to it. As it is the Lady who does the cleaning comes in twice a week for a couple of hours -Enough to keep things in order but not really clean. The reason we don't have all these staff is that we can't afford them. All of our cars are getting old, but they look great once a month when I know that I don't have to mail a car payment. Sure I'd like a new car, but it's not in the budget. I don't know about what is happening in other Councils? But it seems to me that in our Council we are trying to live beyond our means. A little time back I asked people to list 3 services that they receive from their Council. None of the lists were very impressive. Later I asked where the value is. Do we really feel that we receive over $100.00 worth of service? Does the pack with 70 Cub Scouts really receive over $8,000 worth? Eamonn.

packsaddle As ever you have hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure how many people use the library. The local schools have spent big bucks up-dating their computers. In fact they just did in the past few weeks. I was upset that they just thew them in the dumpster. I thought maybe some of the older people in town might have been able to use them. I don't think I know a family that doesn't own a computer. Sure my Mother-in -law doesn't but she has no wish to have anything to do with them!! frankj I'm certain they know that they have asked and re-asked!! They are also very much aware of my involvement in Scouting and I think know how expensive starting a new Sea Scout unit can be. Eamonn.

I really like the small town that I live in. Over the years I have watched things change. Not always for the good. The two small supermarkets were unable to compete with the big stores that moved in just outside of town and closed. This has hurt the older people who can no longer drive. The local YMCA was housed in a very old building in the center of town. It was old, but the local kids could ride their bikes or walk to it. It closed and became a Regional YMCA, again outside of town, in fact unless you drive you have a real hard time getting there. The local kids can't get there so they hang out in the local parks, hounded by the local police who don't seem to understand why kids use skateboards in the park. The answer they have come up with is to build a place for skate-boarding at the YMCA -Which of course the kids have a hard time getting too!! When the Y moved, they couldn't afford a new pool in the new facility. The community bought the pool. Built in the early 70's it is showing its age and after the initial "Save our pool" campaign, is having a hard time making ends meet. We (the Ship) do use the pool and I do sent them a donation. They knocked down the building that used to house the old Y and plan to build a new library on the site. The price tag is just over one-million dollars. I was asked to sit on the building committee. I politely turned it down. I'm happy with the small library we have. I was asked why? I tried to be very polite and brush it off without giving a reason and sure enough I wasn't asked again. I was then asked for a donation. I again refused. Several letters came, which I took no notice of and just placed them in the garbage. Then came the face to face ask. No less then three Building Committee Members arrived at the house. All sorts of Gold, Silver and Bronze memberships were presented. Again I stated that I just wasn't interested. But they just kept pushing!! Now I'm starting to get a little upset. I reminded them that it was only two years ago that the hours that the library was open had to be cut, due to not being able to afford to stay open. I reminded them that the school has a first class library and a town of less than 5,000 doesn't need a million dollar library!! I was informed that the new library would be state of the art, with computers and Internet service. I said that if things keep going the way that they are there will be no need for a library. People can look up just about anything on line, people can down load books and read them from the Internet, but if they wanted a donation to install a better system in the existing building I might be more interested. With this the tone of the meeting changed and I was more or less told I was a mean hearted, tight fisted old miser! Two days later in the mail I received a letter asking me if I would reconsider. It seems that the project is stalling for lack of funds. I ignored it. Eamonn.

I have read the ten page document. There is a lot of things covered in it. I will need some time to digest it and try and understand and see what it really is saying. Off the top of my head, having not really spent any time on it, I have to admit I do have some concerns and do feel it will have some far reaching effects. We as a forum seem to have spent some time looking at where or who has authority. It seems to me that the BSA does own a lot of the symbols used and can manage the use of them as they (The National Council) see fit. I really don't think that the BSA has the manpower to go after everyone who opts to not follow the rules and it will come down to people doing the right thing because it's the right thing. Not trying to steal the thread. - But... I have to admit to being a little surprised that the BSA in the VLSC course is not asking that royalties be paid for the movies used in the Vision on Video module. We do collect the money for movies used at WB. I can't help thinking that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. If we want people to respect our trademarks, we should respect the copyrighted material of others. Eamonn

From my dealings with the people from French Creek Council, he will be working for some outstanding volunteers. Eamonn.

Over the years I have supported the Council I'm in by donating to the Council endowment fund. These gifts have benefited or I like to think have benefited both the Council and myself. Me by reducing my tax burden. I choose to donate to the Council endowment fund, because Scouting is something that I dearly love. But also because I felt that my donations were beyond the reach of Scout Executives who have little or no real training in managing money. This isn't a put down!! It's just the way I see things. Our Council for it's size has what I think is a fair amount in the fund. To be honest I used to know, but right now I'm unsure if it's 3 or 5 million dollars. I really like the person who heads the committee and do trust him. He works for one of the big name investment companies and is a real nice person. He is an Ex-Council President, Silver Beaver and Distinguished Eagle. The idea of a fund that would grow and be there to serve and meet the needs of Kids in the years to come seemed like a good one. My lack of faith in the abilities of Scout Executives would seem to be well founded. Their ability to meet payroll and pay the bills, seems to have been based on an overly optimistic view of how much money would come in. Budgets seem to have been made with the idea that unrealistic goals would be met.When it seemed that the money needed wasn't coming in or going to come in, necessary actions were not taken. The end result of course was that at the end of the year there was a deficit. In order to correct this money would be taken from the endowment fund. I'm a very simple fellow, I'm happy to follow the advise of my accountant and financial planner. I had every intention of attending the next World Jamboree, I really wanted to go! But spending $10,000 (I'd have to take OJ!!) with OJ starting college next year, just wasn't a wise move. Sure I have money set aside for his college expenses, I have investments and a retirement fund. With the stroke of a pen I could take ten grand!! But the bottom line is that is something that I just can't afford. The fault is all mine I should have saved and put funds aside for it. Back to the endowment fund. When Councils use the fund as a cash cow to cover losses in the operating budget, the idea of endowment seems lost. To make matters worse!! A couple of years back our local United Way announced that they would be cutting us off. The $90,000 they gave each year would be cut over three years to zero !! Their reasoning was why should they fund an organization with millions of dollars in the bank!! This would seem to me that our endowment fund is now hurting us. I'm all for taking some of the interest from the fund and making it available for capital projects, such as unexpected emergencies. But when the fund is used to cover or make up losses in the operating budget, something is very wrong and people need to be held accountable. Eamonn.

Pope John Paul II wasn't what you might call a slacker!! Eamonn.

"The people who live there are "United States Citizens", not "Americans". " Not all of them!! Eamonn.

"Do councils ever look at the socio-economic status of the various units when they plan out their FOS campaigns?" In our Council Financial goals seemed like "Let's make a deal!! Step one: The Key 3 would look at what the District Goals would be. We had the District Goal -Money that the members of the District Committee would donate. Community Goal -Money we would get from the local community (local businesses) and the Family campaign. The Community goal was decided upon by meeting with the FOS Community Chair and the Team Captains. The District and Family goals were decided upon by looking at how much we brought in last year. I tried to adjust the numbers to allow for changes in membership.As a rule I would take last years amount that came in and increase it by 3%. This was sent to the SE. He writes the Council Budget. He would sent it back!! Saying it wasn't enough. I would argue with him!! The District Chairman before me got so mad about this that he quit!! One time I went and counted the number of empty stores in our small town. I pointed out that several local big employers had moved away or closed up shop. This didn't only effect the Community amount, it also had a bearing on the amount that families could give. Still every year the goals went up. When it came to asking for money, we had rewards for people who gave $100.00 for a patch, $175.00 to attend the Dinner. The sad thing is that if you only ask for $25.00 that's all your going to get!! Don't tell anyone but the way around it is to do your own FOS presentation and send the check to the Council. Eamonn.

The posting by PS made me smile!! " Translation from 'tongues' " In our house: "What do you want for dinner?" Translation: We are having chicken. "The grass is starting to grow" Translation: Get off your duff and mow the grass. "Is that someone at the door?" Translation: You answer the door, I'm not going to! "Hey Dad" Translation: OJ needs something, is going to be home late or needs money! "Hey Babe" Translation: Eamonn wants to go away for the weekend. "When you get time" Translation: Stop whatever the heck your doing and do ... "It would be nice if ..." Translation: This is what we are going to do. "You look tired" Translation: I'm tired and we are all going to bed. "Did you remember to ..." Translation: I forgot to ... Please feel free to add. Eamonn.

Talking as someone who has gone through most of his life with a name that a lot of people, depending on location (In Ireland they tend to get it right!!) I don't get upset or bent out of shape when people get it wrong. Yes by the way Eamonn is my real first name. I blame my parents for giving me such a strange name. Just as I blame the BSA for getting this wrong. Having a Venture Patrol in Boy Scouting and then adding a Venturing Crew in Venturing shows lack of imagination! Maybe it's just in our area but I can't think of anyone (Other then when they recite the Venturing Oath and code) who uses the term "Venturers" ? Back when I was a Venture Scout and belonged to a Venture Unit back home in the UK, we never had these problems. People seemed happy with Venture Scouts and yes it was a co-ed program. Venture Scouting seemed to be not that hard to manage. It seems that even the Venturing Division doesn't always get it right? Looking at the web site I see "Resources for the Crew". Surely if that were to be 100% correct it should read Resources for the Venturing Crew? On the Venturing BSA history page I even see: " Moments when a young lady stands before a group to tell how she finally had a place to be a Scout along with her mom, dad, and brothers." Should someone inform her that she has got it wrong? Should someone tell the Venturing Division? Eamonn.

While I do respect the views of others in the forum. I have to admit that the constant correction about Venturing and the terms used is becoming very irksome. Sure they are Cub Scouts and not just Cubs and Lord forbid we ever call them Cubbies. And yes Boy Scouts are Boy Scouts, we know if we just call them Scouts we might be talking about Sea Scouts, Cub Scouts or Varsity Scouts. Maybe a Crew Member might be confused with a Sea Scout who is a member of a Crew. But gezz most of the time in the forum we know what group some one is talking about. Please lighten up a little. Eamonn.

Hi Good Ole Buff, Welcome. I'm sure you are going to get all sorts of answers and ideas. Here's my 2 cents. *Kind of a dumb question. But has he met all of the other needed requirements? *If he has it does indeed come down to Scout Spirit. Attending Scout meetings doesn't mean you have Scout spirit. Just as going to church doesn't make a Christian a good Christian. If the Lad is living by the Oath and Law I would say he has Scout Spirit. If however he is a little toad than he need to have a chat (SM Conference?) and maybe some goals can be set by him to show that he really does have what it takes. Good Luck. Eamonn.

Thanks scoutldr. Maybe I'm just being more than a little dense? But as I read that document I read: ".... It charters community or religious organizations or groups to use scouting as part of their service to their own members and the community at large." The Chartered organization agrees to "Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America. "Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families. So while we do respect the aims of the organization and do offer the resources of Scouting to help in meeting their objectives. We do so within the policies and guidelines of the Boy Scouts of America. If an organization was unwilling to work within the policies and guidelines the Boy Scouts of America does not have to issue a charter, renew a charter and could revoke a charter. The program belongs to the Boy Scouts of America. Eamonn.