Eamonn

At dinner tonight,Her Who Must Be Obeyed mentioned that her Mother had met Flash at a dinner. I really like Flash. His real name is Bob Miller. Bob lived next door to HWMBO. He was her history teacher in school and when I came over as an International Camp Counselor in 1977, he was the Camp Director. Now in his eighties he still works up at camp as the Chaplin during the summer. It seems that Bob had said how much he enjoyed OJ's Eagle Scout COH.Go as far as to say it was the best he'd ever attended. OJ must have thought that he'd grab the iron while it was hot! He said that he'd given it some thought and after due consideration he thought an Eagle tattoo would be really nice. I hate tattoos!! I said he was welcome to go ahead and get his tat. But once he did the "Bank Of Dad" would be closed! I'll give him credit for great timing. I noticed that he wasn't sitting very comfortably at the table. It seems that him and his prom date had gone tanning together. I had of course informed him of the dangers when he'd brought it up a week or so back. He was really red and sore. He said that he'd shaved his legs and he thought they looked "Pretty darn nice!!" I just laughed. We had another chat about skin cancer and this time I think it might have taken. Eamonn.

Little Timmy Tenderfoot finds an old piece of sisal rope which has clearly seen better days. He works hard all week mastering the bowline. At the next Troop meeting he shows it to his PL. He is surprised when the PL informs him that this is no good. When he asks why? The PL replies "Frayed Knot" Ea.

SR540Beaver The Troop owned and operated four 15 seat vans, with custom made roof racks. Very often we would send the Scouts to camp by train while the equipment was taken by van. For summer camp we all went by Train or some form of public transportation. One local Troop had a 52 seater bus which they let us use if they weren't using it and if it was working. We looked into buying a 52 Seater bus, but the mini vans were cheaper to maintain. When we visited the States we rented a school bus for ten days. The English Scouts thought this was neat as they had seen them on Sesame Street!! The "Neatness" wore out on about day two! Even my leading them is a burst of "The Wheels on the bus" didn't seem to help. Transporting 14 Patrol Boxes,dining fly's and tents (In the UK we used 8 man tents with six Scouts in each tent) was at times a challenge!! For summer camp we tried to take as much food as we could with us. Please don't tell anyone. One year I tried my hand at smuggling!! We were camping at the Scout Center in Rotterdam in Holland. I mentioned this to a friend of mine who was the bacon supplier for the hospital I was working in. He donated three whole sides of smoked bacon, which had been imported from Denmark. I hid the bacon in among the tents and other equipment. All the time thinking I was going to be caught and sent directly to jail, not passing go and not getting my $200. As we neared the Dutch customs, pangs of guilt hit me!! So I stopped and went through the area for vehicles with something to declare. As it happened the Customs Officer was a Dutch Sea Scouter, he laughed when I declared my bacon! Later that week he came to visit us and the following week his Scouts and some of our Scouts went cycling together. We of course fed them boiled bacon, potatoes and cabbage. Strange thing was that the Scouts complained for a couple of days that the tents smelled funny!! I wonder why? Ea. (That was the end of my days as a smuggler -Failed again!!)

"in the glove compartment of my car. " No!! I'm thinking of making next week "Be Kind To Compass Week" Anyone found storing a compass especially one that isn't liquid filled in a glove compartment or near the electrical supply (Battery?) Will be reported to the Lost and Found Police! They might have to use a hand held compass with no way of working out what the deviation is!! Eamonn.

I think we will have to agree to disagree!! I'm not sold on the idea. A far better example is the set up used at Wood Badge -Even if one adult does "Play" a youth member role. Back home we had 90 Scouts in the Troop. At times just getting them and the equipment to camp was a big enough headache. I'll go back to my corner now and "Grump Away" Ea.

I'm not an expert. My vote is to turn and face the flag. I echo what I think Beavah said. At the 2001 Jamboree closing ceremony, the Troop was close to the aisle. Where a young Marine was standing. The flags were brought in a mix of the Troop Flags, American Flag and the national flags of the countries of international Scouts attending the Jamboree. This seemed to take a very long time. The young Marine stood at attention and held his salute to the very end. I tried!! But I thought my arm was going to fall off! The English don't place their hand over their heart as a sign of respect for the Union Flag. As I'm not an American this at times places me in an awkward position. I of course would never show disrespect to the flag of an nation and I want to set a good example to the Scouts. I do salute the American Flag and do place my hand over my heart (Which I did at the Jambo when my arm went numb.) I'm happy to stand and salute when the pledge of allegiance is said, but I don't say it! For our Sea Scout ceremonies the Scouts and myself do use the double salute when coming on or off the Ship. As a rule the ensign is already in place.(Not always!!) If the pledge is part of the ceremony the Ship does turn to face the flag. Eamonn.

I know that I'm going to sound like an old Grump. But I have never been in favor of adults trying to play Boy Scout. The Leadership team at different camps has different things to do depending on the theme of the camp. I fail to see how the SM is or can model a Patrol Leader. Yes I know it's done at Wood Badge, but that's the participants not the staff. While parents are welcome to visit, I'm not sure how I'd manage the camp that SR540Beaver has described! While maybe it might be unkind? I know I wouldn't be happy "Baby sitting" that many adults. I feel when the number of adults gets to be too many, it takes away from the reason why we went in the first place. Eamonn.

Remind me not to allow CNYScouter to navigate for me. Silva Compasses are great for Scouts. The Silva 1-2-3 Starter Compass.A Beginners compass has a liquid-filled housing and protractor with metric scale. Scout Stuff sells it for $9.99. You can pick it up elsewhere for about $9.00. While all compasses will point North, design and ease of use comes into play. You could of course make your own (Have the the Scouts make them) With a magnetized needle, a cork and a bowl of water. Or if you have time you will need You'll need these materials: A flat area where the sun shines directly (no shade) A straight stick or dowel, about 18 inches long Four heavy rocks (about the size of golf balls) A few smaller stones for marking . In order to know which way the wind is blowing, you'll need a compass. You might like to make your own. You'll need these materials: A flat area where the sun shines directly (no shade) A straight stick or dowel, about 18 inches long Four heavy rocks (about the size of golf balls) A few smaller stones for marking Locate a flat sunny space near your weather station. Begin by digging a hole about six inches deep. Bury the base of the stick. The stick should now be standing up to a height of twelve inches. The first thing you'll need to do is locate "North." Before the cubs get up in the morning, place a small marking stone at the end of the shadow cast by the stick. After school, later in the afternoon, the shadow should be about the same length as it was in the morning, but in a different direction. Place a marking stone at the end of the afternoon shadow. Position your right foot on the morning stone and your left foot on the afternoon stone. Your body now faces south. Another way to think of this is that the two shadows meet at the stick to form an "arrow" pointing south. Once you have located "south," place one of the four heavy stones on the ground, about twelve inches in front of the stick. Position a second stone in the "north" position by tracing a straight line opposite away from south. Position "east" and "west" carefully opposite from each other. Be sure that they are equally distant from "north" and "south." You can use your compass to find wind direction and other weather data. This information will be needed to guide in the "Rescue Helicopter" Using the Silva compass setting up a simple orienteering course to find buried clues shouldn't be that hard. If there is a Sea Scout Ship in your area or a good Venturering Crew you might want to ask them to come and set up a simple course and explain how a compass works. Have fun and remember KISMITF Eamonn.

Tom, You are more than welcome. Good Luck with both the Ticket and with the new position. Eamonn.

While I share some of the concerns that ScoutNut has voiced. You say you (who?) Are a NPO. Is the unit a 501(3)©? How much money is it going to cost? Does the plan include monies to be held in endowment for future costs? Raising large amounts of money and asking for funds from the community and from foundations will depend on several key factors. Will the community see the project as being worth while? Who will use it? How many members? What will it be used for and how often? Sadly many foundations want nothing to do with BSA units because of the "Politics" Applying for funding from Foundations and even the local United Way can (and does!!) entail a heck of a lot of paper work. (The last grant I applied for needed 15 copies of everything -One for each board member -Each packet was 15 pages) Beware!! The local Council might take a very dim view of a unit trying to raise such a large amount, they might see it as harming their efforts. How you go about it? Who you are? Will make a big difference. Sadly I have to admit that I wouldn't be keen on donating a lot of money for such a project. Not that I don't like you!! But I seen the Scout Building that was built for my old troop back in the UK "Lost" When the Scout Group ceased to exist and the District also ceased to exist. The building was built by the members who returned from WW II. Finished and opened in the mid 1960's. It sits on some of the most expensive land in London. It's worth several million dollars. I'm a trustee of the building. With no Scout unit using it. The Scout Association will take ownership. Of course they don't want it or need it so it will be sold (We don't have a CO) and the money used for Scouting in the UK. Which isn't all bad, but wasn't what the people who raised the money and built it had in mind. It was a memorial to one of the Scouts who died in a POW camp. Sorry!! Eamonn.

Please forgive me if this comes off sounding like I'm blowing my own trumpet!! As many of you know I'm very much a program type guy. I firmly believe that everything we do starts and ends with program. The hands on stuff we see the Scouts participate in. Take away all of our moaning and groaning and at the end of the day we as a group of volunteers do one heck of a good job. Sadly we the people on the inside tend to think that everyone knows who we are and what we do. This is not true. Sure people have heard of us and it seems even if they don't know what we do they think highly of us. Trying to bring community members in can be hard. One big obstacle is us!! We seem to think at times unless someone is wearing some sort of a uniform and working directly with the youth; we don't need them. Another problem can be the Council. SE's (some not all!!) when they see a recognizable name or someone who has a "Position" will try and snap them up to serve on the Council level. A lot of times just to attend meetings and with the hope they will donate a lot of cash. I looked at what we did well and what might interest "Outsiders" in what we do? Our District has always done Eagle Scout Board of Reviews at the District level. Sadly very often these boards were put together in a hurry, with the Advancement Chair running around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to grab a few Scouter's to sit on the board. Eagle Scout BOR's as a rule show the best of the best and many of the projects are just outstanding. We added ESBOR to the District Calendar. The Board would meet at the same time same place each month. We then made a list of Community people to invite to sit on the board. They could sign up for a meeting when they were free. After the board had done it's work there was time for light refreshments (Coffee and cookies) This was the opportunity to make the sale!! After the cookies we sometimes went for adult refreshments (Not in uniform of course!!) The worst things you can do to a new volunteer is to give them nothing to do or waste their time. Strange as it might seem finding real things for people to do at the district level can be hard. The Community FOS Chair and captains have goals and seem to do what has to be done. But they do a far better job if they are not kept in the dark. Sending them regular reports about how the campaign is going and cards when goals are met is very important. We kicked off the campaign with a lunch. The DE used to plan this, but we signed up the manager of the CC to sit on the finance committee and she planned it working with the DE. This was also a big help with the District Golf outing. (The golf outing did a lot to attract more community involvement, not just the players but hole sponsors, car dealers, insurance agents -Hole in one won a new car!) Printers. I never ever asked these people to do what they did for a living for nothing!! We always paid our way. Having owned a few businesses there is a line between doing something for nothing and making a donation. I knew that my company couldn't do things for nothing, but I as a person could make a donation. (Council seemed to think I could do both!!) We also went out of our way to support the people who supported us. Buying trophies from stores. A pal of mine owns a beer distributor business. He donates a fair amount to the community FOS.I managed to talk him into giving popcorn to his customers at Christmas. He bought cases and cases of popcorn. He also sells ice. The council was buying ice for summer camp from a company that didn't support us. So we gave him the ice account. He made a few deliveries to camp over the summer. I told him about Camperships and he signed up to serve on the Camping committee. We planned Photo-ops around activities. Not just so the people got their photo in the paper, but we made sure they came to a place where they seen what the kids were doing. I'm still a bit of a foreign "Novelty". One good thing about my English accent is that it makes people have to listen! That along with the white hair helps make me a little hard to forget. One of my "Sermons" at the time was "If your Scouting isn't infectious it might be contaminated." I believe that adults need to be treated like adults. Not big Boy Scouts. I promised people I wasn't going to waste their time. - No one needs to sit through a District Committee meeting where 20 -30 people talk about the patch design for the next Camporee. I only invited people to meetings if what they were involved with was an agenda item. I did sent minutes to all the members and all the COR's. I did hold people accountable to do what they said they were going to do. Between meetings I met with them called them had the DE call them. I worked very closely with the DE, making sure she was sending out all the reports and minutes. I was very guilty of thinking and working like she worked for me. She seemed happy with this as we were meeting our goals. At times we worked around the Council or sometimes just plowed right through. If the SE or the FD seemed to get in the way I went out of my way to bring it to the attention of the full Council Executive Board. SE's hate that more than anything!! At times our DE was told she had to put me on a short leash!! We laughed about that. Bringing people on board isn't going to just happen. They need to be asked. When asked they need to be given an area or specific task to do. It's very important to celebrate goals that are met and say thanks.Never miss an opportunity to say thanks! Good communication is vital. Just like a Scout who misses a few meetings, you need to find out why someone isn't doing what they should be doing. The nominating committee idea does work, even if they meet in my dining room with a bottle of wine. Breakfast meetings don't work and are a waste of time. Holding people accountable isn't the same as beating on them!! This is supposed to be fun!! Happy smiling faces sell the program better than anything. There is a time not to wear uniforms!! Remember not everyone knows the language of Scouting. Everyone understands kids having fun and working toward becoming good citizens. Of course money is important. The idea of putting people on the spot and embarrassing them is not only wrong, but it doesn't work! Forming real relationships, getting to know (really know) the people you are working with is important. This means knowing more than just the name of their spouse or secretary. Make friends!! Listening and hearing what people say is real big. Food helps!! cakes and cup cakes are cheap!! Bring people to District events stick a hot-dog in their hand have it served by a happy kid (Dirty faces and clean hands??) Local people love to see their picture in the local paper. Scouting for Food is good for lots of pictures of Scouts and community people -Not just the Scout but the box in the bank or the high school or the local store. Merit Badges need lots of counselors -The local Vet, dentist, fire chief. This gets your foot in the door. Invite Scouts who have done something to talk about it at local events and at District meetings. The Lad who has just come back from the jamboree or Philmont? The District Committee is the same as the Cub Scout Pack, we keep on asking people to come along and help and share in the joy of helping the kids in their area. Contact the BSA Relationships Division, they have all sorts of neat stuff -You might need to have the SE or the FD order it for you and some of it isn't free but most times they (the SE & FD) don't even know it's available. When possible tag along with the DE when they meet with the CO. (Make sure the DE is meeting with all the CO -Real meetings, not saying hello in Wal-mart!) Look at last years unit charters, last years Den Leader who isn't on this years charter might want to help? The family that just gave a lot of money to the Family FOS are already sold on the program, they just need to be asked. It's also important to know when to let people go. When it becomes clear that they really no longer want to do whatever and are either just going through the motions or not doing anything. Finding the right time and place to have an honest talk about it, is better than hoping things will get better. Maybe they would be happier doing something else? Maybe they need a break? Or maybe they are just done? It's better that they leave as a friend than hang around till something isn't working. The main reason people don't volunteer is that we don't ask! Eamonn.

Hi Tom, Welcome to the forum. For some of my sins I spent 3 years as a District Chairman. As the District Chairman you can have a big impact on the District you serve. This impact will come from your vision. The final item on the Agenda when I was Chair. Was Pride and Soft Spots. My big soft spots were. Lack of participation by the COR's. Marketing. Selecting and having the right person for the right job on the District Committee. An on going problem was effective communication. When I took the job out of the four Districts in the Council we were the smallest. My Vision was to stop being the smallest. (This isn't rocket science) Of course ensuring that we made Quality District was up there, but I didn't claim ownership of that one! My mission was to bring more youth members into the District. To do this I needed a strong Membership Committee. Starting new units, recruiting more youth and helping units that were having problems with recruiting was step one. But just if not more important was retaining the Scout we had. This meant ensuring that we offered Training's that were worth while and were offered when people could attend. Marketing came in, by letting the community know who we are, what we do and when we do it. ( I fell into the trap of thinking that everyone knew about Scouts and what they did! I was really surprised at how many people didn't -Sure they had heard of Boy Scouts and helping little old Ladies across the road, but they had no idea what we did -When you think we meet in the basement and camp in the woods -It's not really that surprising!!) I used the catch phrase "More Happy Smiling Faces" Everything we did came back to membership. When I asked community groups for money (FOS) I talked about bringing more kids into Scouting. I invited all the FOS Chairs to dinner at Summer camp and gave them a tour of the camp. I knew that talking to our old time Scouter's about membership was akin to swearing in church!! I never used the word "Membership" just more happy smiling faces. Making this or something like it into a Ticket. Take a long hard look at your District (the District you serve!!) Look at what works and what doesn't. From there you will find your Vision. (Ask your WB SM if you can have a copy of the presentation - Look at why they planted the acorns.) Now look at what needs to be done to bring or give life to your vision. Remember a Vision without action is just a dream. This will become your mission. All you need now is the goals. In my case I knew I needed the best people I could get to do the job. We hadn't used a nominating committee. So we formed one (Goal one) We kinda just expected COR's to attend the District meeting. I moaned and groaned when they didn't. So I called all the CO's and mentioned that their rep wasn't at the meetings and sent post cards each and every month to the COR. I contacted the Relationships Division and where they had material for specific organizations I asked if they would send me the material which I then forwarded to the CO asking if they would pass it on to the COR. Once I had them at the meeting I came on strong about how nice it would be to see more happy smiling faces from their organization. (goal two) We formed a District marketing committee. They took photos or forwarded information to the local media. (Goal three) The District covered three School Districts. We recruited all three School Superintendents to sit on the membership committee. They really helped a lot with boy talks and school sign up nights (goal four) We recruited the head of a African -American Church to help start units in Baptist Churches (Sadly the Council took him and put him on the Executive Board) I could go on but I think you should get the idea. Please don't tell anyone but the big secret to writing the ticket is having your vision in place, then your mission. After that it's a piece of cake. Eamonn.

Kind of strange how you (Me!) can get out of the habit. Turn the clock back ten years or so. Mike was District Chairman Pam was DE. Jack was Program Chair. I was District Commissioner. We seen each other at least two or three times a month. We have now been trying for three months to plan a get together. It seems that even with less responsibility (work) we are all still very busy or busy doing something! I thought we might get together at OJ's ESCOH, but Jack was on a cruise. This week Pam is off to China. Mike's Dad is 89 and not doing well. How did we ever find the time before? (Jack quit Scouting, Mike is the Council Camping Chair.Pam retired but is on the Ship's Committee and I'm with the Ship.) Ea.

Or maybe they were so expensive that no one was buying them? Ea.

PatBB I'm not a lawyer. My little sister is, in fact she is both a solicitor and a barrister. When she was around I would often borrow her books. I really enjoyed Lord Denning. I enjoyed the way he worded some of his opening. While I don't want to hijack the thread. If you read Miller V.Jackson (Better known as The Cricket Case)he wrote: In summertime village cricket is the delight of everyone. Nearly every village has its own cricket field where the young men play and the old men watch. In the village of Lintz in County Durham they have their own ground, where they have played these last 70 years. They tend it well. The wicket area is well rolled and mown. The outfield is kept short. It has a good club house for the players and seats for the onlookers. The village team play there on Saturdays and Sundays. They belong to a league, competing with the neighbouring villages. On other evenings after work they practise while the light lasts. Yet now after these 70 years a judge of the High Court has ordered that they must not play there any more. He has issued an injunction to stop them. He has done it at the instance of a newcomer who is no lover of cricket. While I know at times I do sound like a book thumper. We do have to take care that we don't over regulate things to the extent that we can no longer play the game. Leadership courses are fine and dandy, but zip lines and aerial runways are more fun. Even if there is and maybe because there is an element of risk? Eamonn.

Her Who Must Be Obeyed, is an American. She isn't a Catholic. When we got married, we did so in the UK in my parish church. The Priest who married us was a super nice fellow. His Mother was an American and he had converted from whatever he was to become a Catholic. I think the Catholic Church in the UK is a little bit more laid back than it seems to be here in the USA. We should have taken some classes before we got married but as she arrived ten days before the wedding this wasn't possible. We had talked about what we planned to do. Getting married in a Catholic church was very important to me. We agreed that when our four son's (That bit didn't happen!) came along they would be raised as Catholics. When it came to discussing the wedding vows, she said that there was no way she was going to say Obey. She went on to say that she wasn't a dog and that dogs are taught to obey. As it turned out "Obey" never came up. We agreed to go with: "To have and to hold, from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and cherish until death do you part?" With a list like that we really didn't need obey. Obedience is or can be a strange thing. We just went through Lent. OJ, isn't a a great lover of seafood, he moaned and complained every Friday. I honestly don't believe that the Big Guy is going to send anyone to Hell and damnation for eating a sausage on a Friday during Lent. I suppose with me thinking this way eating fish or not eating meat on Fridays during lent seems a little silly? Still I feel if I'm going to claim to be a Catholic, I have a duty to follow the rules of my church. When I was a little fellow I used to give up things for Lent. I still have friends who give things up for lent. (I gave up sweets and candy they tend to give up more adult type things.) To ease my conscience, I used to send a bigger donation to a catholic charity at Easter. I don't do that anymore, in part because I feel it was me paying for my guilt for not giving something up. When we teach Sea Scouts Safe Boating, one of the things we cover is that in order to avoid a collision that it's OK to break or not follow the rules.(... which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.) Kinda strange to have a rule which states that it's sometimes OK to not follow the rule! I think this makes a lot of sense. I've had a lot of e-mails this week about the young man from Washington PA who is an Eagle Scout, who used his skills to save his life last Monday by tying a cord around his leg to stop the bleeding. I'm happy that he did and that he is still with us. It seems that a lot of us (Scouter's) are giving ourselves a pat on the back for teaching him First Aid? I can't remember teaching tourniquets in fact I tell our Scouts not to use them. Again in this case it seems to have worked and maybe he was lucky he didn't have me teach him First Aid!! If we are looking at Obedience in a Scouting (BSA) context? I think maybe taking one point of the twelve and singling it out is not a good thing. It's a package deal. We can all of course look at the rule book or the regulations and come up with scenarios that make it seem that the rule or rules are not right. (Sure Scouts shouldn't travel in the back of pick up trucks, but transporting an injured Scout in the back of the pick up truck might be the best way to go. Of course we don't ever go out of our way to get caught in a one on one with a Scout but it can happen.)How far we take that is up to the individual. Still when we throw in the eleven points of the Scout Law, it might take on a different meaning? We know or find out a lot of the rules before or soon after we join. In most cases unless someone gets hurt or harmed the consequences for not following the rules or regulations don't exist. Still when we choose to ignore or not follow them are we being Trustworthy? Loyal? Brave? Helpful? Sometimes what might seem to not be kind is the way to go. I know not taking a Scout who can't pass a swim test might upset the Scout and yes I feel bad for him or her and will do what I can to help him or her master the skill needed. I suppose I could think up 101 reasons why they don't need to have passed the swim test. But the rule says that they need to have met the requirements. The BSA is trusting me to follow the rule, the CO is trusting me, the kids parents are trusting me. Seems that any thread on Uniforms will take up a lot of space. I can see and do understand why not all Scouts will be in full 100% uniform. I however think that the SM who informs the parents that in his Troop they don't wear full uniform is not being loyal and is abusing the trust placed in him. We at the end of the day promise to do our best. I think this applies to obedience and playing the game by the rules. Eamonn.

I find Obedient to be the hardest to live by. I don't seem to have a problem doing the right thing but I hate being told what to do. At times I know I'm guilty of reading way too much into what people say and allow that to get to me. For example. Somehow the District Tiger Cub Spring Recruitment has morphed into a Scoutoree. An all dat event where units present some sort of Scouting skill or what ever. The idea being that this will attract new members. Our Quarterdeck gave this some thought and were having a hard time coming up with something that they wanted to do. The event is in a big field. They thought about doing a ceremony as we have a couple of new Scouts that need to be welcomed into the Ship. Setting up the Landship, having the Ship turn out in whites, would look good, but it would take maybe 15 minutes. They looked at doing a Boatswain's Chair race. There isn't any trees. Seems just about everything they came up with either needed something that wasn't there or they just didn't want to do. Tyeing knots for six hours didn't seem like a lot of fun. The next few weeks are really busy for the Ship and to be honest I could do without this Scoutoree. In the end with a little arm twisting from me!! We decided that we needed to work on the boats anyway and even if it would be not as easy to work on them in this field it could be done. Then we received a letter from the District Chairman stating that "All unit were expected to attend and support the District." I being me immediately wrote back informing him that he had it wrong and it was the role of the District to support the units. He e-mailed me back telling me that this was a mandatory event. With some help from me the Quarterdeck decided that we would go sailing that day. I have a hard time explaining Cheerful. Maybe because I remember and can't help thinking back to when I first joined Scouts in the UK and the "Same" point was "A Scout smiles and whistles through all difficulties". If you have ever smiled and tried to whistle at the same time? It's almost impossible to do!! I think it's OK to not be cheerful! At times hiding behind a smile and masking your feelings is not the way to go. I do tend to put Trustworthy on the top of my list. It seems to me that without trust a lot of the others don't seem to fall in line. Eamonn.

Of the twelve points of the Scout Law: Which one do you find the hardest to live by? Which one do you find the hardest to explain to a new Scout? Do you feel one is more important than the others? If so which one? I don't think that there is any wrong answers or that any answers are more right than others! This is a very personal thing, so while it might be OK to question someone as to why? They feel the way they do, it's not OK to "Beat up on them" because they see things differently than you might! Eamonn.

As to being crazy? I'm not crazy enough to go near that one!! You will of course in the end do what you think is right. You don't say why your husband seems so keen for you to give up being the Cubmaster? For a good many years I was guilty of talking the talk but not walking the walk. Sure I'd get up and tell everyone that Family,Work and Church came before Scouting. But over time I started to put Scouting before my family. I was having a great time. I had a great bunch of Scouting friends and we'd tease each other, tell jokes, laugh a lot and we did get a lot of work done. When Her Who must Be Obeyed would say anything, I got very defensive and at times upset. I also made the mistake of thinking that if I wasn't around things wouldn't get done. Along the way I picked up more than my fair share of badges, knots and beads. While I never really went out of my way to get them I'll admit I enjoyed basking in the limelight and all this stuff helped feed my ego. The truth is that I wasn't being very fair to my wife or my son. I can't help feeling before you sign up for another year having a long chat with the members of your family might be in order. Good Luck. Ea.

Membership in all the sections of the BSA is on the Delcine. Attendance at church services is down. Attendance at baseball games is down. It seems that people are not going to the movies. Sales of alcoholic beverages are up, but alcohol sales in bars and restaurants are down. We used to in our small town have almost 400 kids signed up for soccer (From age 5 -13) I hear that they only had 160 sign up for the spring. Local softball is also hurting. This year only three seniors played in the high school band. I notice that when I drive past the local parks they are empty, no little kids playing on the swings or in the sand. The country club doesn't seem able to recruit new members. I don't play, but I'm told that attendance at bingo is not what it used to be. People don't seem to want to join the Rotary, Elks, VFW or the American Legion. So where is everyone? Eamonn.

While I know that there is a thread open about what happened on Monday in Virginia and I don't want to hijack this thread. For now I'm happy to wait for the report that the Governor has said he will ask for. I'm not sure what went wrong? I'm not sure what can be done to prevent such a thing happening again. Some things that come to my mind are. Gun control.Beefed up security -Cameras, mental health reports, the list could go on. Just about all the things I can think of in some way do take away or infringe on peoples personal freedoms. This is where we have to look at: " Which course develops moral and ethical thinking? Which course of action promotes the common good? What good or what harm will the rule /change of rule make? What course of action is fair? Does it show favoritism or discrimination? What moral rights do those people affected have, and which course of action best respects those rights? Maybe the " Which course develops moral and ethical thinking?" doesn't come into play in this case. But to bring it down to our boy sized world. How would we deal with a Scout who was hurting and maybe bullying other Scouts? if he came from a troubled home or had a troubled background? Would this change the way we would deal with him? Maybe due to my age I'm not remembering things but 30 years ago when I first became a leader I don't remember hearing of children with ADD and ADD HA. Of course now I have and am willing to allow these children some "Slack". I now know that this is an illness.Still even if this is an illness is it an excuse for lack of respect? I think maybe we (Beavah & I) might see "Kindness" in different lights? While of course I think we would agree that being cruel, mean or mean hearted is never good. I think we need a lot of information to be kind. Buying a kid an ice cream might seem like the kind thing to do, but if his parents don't for some some reason want him to have one? Maybe it's just not the right thing to do? Unless we are aware of the reason. I can hear my Mother saying "It will spoil your dinner!!" But maybe the kid has a diet where ice cream could harm him? It's hard to talk about the Bible without upsetting some people. I hope that in keeping with being Reverent I don't upset anyone. I'll admit that my knowledge of the Bible isn't all it should be. Maybe because I spent so much time having the Catechism of the Catholic Church drilled into me? I can't help feeling that the New Testament gives the Pharisees a bad rap. I know that Matthew goes out of his way to show them as being opponents and critics of Jesus. But it seems to me that I don't know very much about them, what they believed in? Or what they stood for? While it's easy now to see them as the bad guys maybe at the time they seen Jesus and his teachings as going against everything they had been brought up to believe as being right? They might have seen what was happening as going against the teachings of the Torah? We can look at them getting upset about confrontation between Jesus and the Pharisees, when Jesus cured a lame man on the Sabbath telling him to " Pick up his bed and walk. " and wonder why they were upset? We don't really know why they were upset. Was it because Jesus cured him on the Sabbath? Was it because he was asked the man to break the Sabbath by picking up his bed? Or was it because after he had been cured Jesus said "`My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.' While it would be OK for God to work on the sabbath, it wasn't OK for a normal Jew. But if as Jesus claims he was the Son of God it would be OK for him to work on the sabbath. But him claiming to be the Son of God must have been hard for the Pharisees to accept. We also don't know much about the man who was cured? Would it make any difference if we did? What if he wasn't a very nice man? Should he have been cured? I don't like lists of rules and regulations in Scouting, I'm happy to use the Oath and Law. But where there is a rule or regulation in place, I do feel obligated to follow it. I see no reason why a Scout should not be allowed to carry a certain type of knife, but if a camp we are going to has a rule that states that sort of knife isn't allowed I'm OK with leaving it at home or looking for another site. If this was a rule in a camp I used a lot I would see what could be done to change it. Eamonn. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

In many ways my morals are a result of my upbringing. My moral values (things I hold to be right and wrong) were shaped by my education,my parents,the examples that were set,traditions, and the culture I was raised in. Being as I was brought up in a family with strong Irish Roman Catholic beliefs, attended Catholic Schools. I know this played a big role in shaping my moral values. I'm sure my moral thinking helps shape my ethical thinking. As a package deal both my morals and ethics are what make up my Virtues or character. I like to think and try hard to be:Honest,courageous, compassionate, generous,fair, have self-control, and all that good stuff. I believe that a person with good morals,good virtues is an ethical person. I also believe I'm a free thinker. I'm free to belong or not to belong to any group I choose (within reason.) There has been times when I questioned some of the groups I belong to and did leave. Some of these groups I choose to return to and some I left for good. Some groups have rules and regulations that might seem silly to me, but I'm willing to go along with the rules because I don't see it as being a big deal. For some reason the dinning room at the club refuses to serve people wearing blue jeans! I don't see the sense in this but it's not a big deal to me and the other members seem happy to go along with it.I was aware of the rule before I joined. We talk a lot about preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices. The values found in the Scout Oath and Law, will we hope become their virtues, help shape their character and this will lead to them making ethical choices. When it comes to looking at or making rules we need to look at: Which course develops moral and ethical thinking? Which course of action promotes the common good? What good or what harm will the rule /change of rule make? What course of action is fair? Does it show favoritism or discrimination? What moral rights do those people affected have, and which course of action best respects those rights? We also talk about Training young people in citizenship, service, and leadership.There are times when as a good citizen the rule may seem wrong or be wrong. Morally breaking the law is not the thing to do (At least not to my mind -Which goes back to how I was raised.) Most people would agree that the 12 points of the Scout Law do help shape ethical character. At times I think we all have a hard time with each point. The point that seems to be the hardest to keep is Obedient. I'm not sure how we can stand up and on our honor make an oath to do our best to keep the Scout Law and then not do it. Surely this is both ethically and morally wrong? Eamonn. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Reaching out to youth. "be remembered as a great scout leader that helped bring kids off the streets and into a worthy cause." Please hold on to your ideals. Don't allow anyone to change your mind. Some thoughts I have for what they are worth? 1/ You are not going to do this by yourself. You need help. Help from people who share your vision. 2/ Take a look at why these youth are not in Scouting? Look at the hurdles that get in the way. Many of these can be overcome with hard work and having the right people doing what needs to be done.Sadly some hurdles will remain and trying to remove them is just not going to work. 3/ Not every youth wants to be a member of the BSA. Even with the best intentions in the world this is true. 4/Some one has to provide the program. This is a job in it-self. Den Leaders, Cubmasters and Scout Leaders provide the program, this is what keeps the youth coming back week after week. They if they are doing their job well don't have time to be going out reaching out to more youth. They can provide a program that will make the members of the unit want to share with others, which in it's own way is reaching out. 5/Don't go for the "Quick Fix". Starting new units, with just a list of names and a signed New Unit Application just doesn't work. In fact it does more harm than good. Starting units with a good foundations with interested CO's, working committees and people who will attend training's works out better in the long run. You are planting seeds which it time will grow. 6/ While what you aim to do is good and worth while try and remember that the adults who lead units full of middle and upper-class youth are still doing what needs to be done. -Don't look down on them. I have heard that Baden Powell was hoping that if enough boys joined Scouting and the world wide movement took off, we could avoid wars. He was very disappointed when world war two came along. Some might say that he had failed. Some say he thought he had failed. I don't know about that. I do know we can only do our best to do what we think is right. I have in the past worked at starting new units in every sort of area. Right now I', busy trying to establish Sea Scouting in our area. My hope is that we will offer the young teenage girls in our area a activity they will want to join. At this time it seems that there is very little for them where we live. Of course we welcome anyone who wants to join! I know I have posted this before. The young lad throwing star fish back into the sea, as the tide goes out. Some one says "You can't possibly save all them star fish." His reply was I know, but I can save this one! You might not be able to get every young person into a BSA program, but you can get one, then one more and so on. Good Luck. Eamonn.

I have never heard or read about a "BSA service model" What is it? Where do I find it? I can't find anywhere anything that states that a Council can change the age of the participants in each section. I have to disagree with: "The only reason to have age groups, or to have a program, is service of the kids. It's not some magical talisman that exists for its own bureaucratic perpetuation" If we go with that why not allow 12 year old Venturers? Why have the a deadline for completing Eagle Scout? Playing the game by the rules is a service to the youth we serve. Changing the rules to suit whoever and whatever is not setting the example we should be setting. This does nothing to help the youth we serve learn about making ethical choices. In fact it does the opposite. Eamonn.

Lisabob As far as I can see; the only thing that has changed since I was involved in Cub Scouting is that at one time a Webelos Scout even with the Arrow Of Light couldn't join a Troop until he was ten and a half, it now seems to be down to ten years old. I do understand and did post that he can remain in the pack until he completes 5 grade. This isn't new the changes were made in 1986 when the Cub Scouting program was expanded to serve all elementary school grades.When the Webelos program was expanded to two years to include fourth-grade and fifth-grade boys. Some time back in the late 1970's the Cub Scout program year changed to coincide with the school year. Of course there may be reasons why boys might not be the same age as the other boys in their grade. I wasn't happy with OJ's reading skills, so I held him back and he redid second grade. As he had already been in the pack, he was a grade behind the other boys in his den. He had earned his AOL by the time he was ten and a half and moved to a Boy Scout Troop then. The program designed for boys who are in the first grade through fifth grade (or 7, 8, 9, and 10 years of age). The program isn't designed to last until the Scout earns the Arrow of Light. I think I might have missed the "As soon" bit that WDL Mom posted. There is of course different interpretations about when a grade is completed. Is it at the end of the School year? Or the start of the next year? In our neck of the woods school is out for the summer at the end of May and returns the last week in August. Nearly all the Troops do their best to get the Lad who has completed fifth grade, to attend Summer Camp that summer. Where of course he can work on Boy Scout advancements and merit badges. Eamonn. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)