EagleInKY

Sorry my comments have taken this thread a little off-topic. I'll stand corrected on the comment about the OA/BSA relationship. However, I stand by my belief that you can have a great scouting program without the OA. I'm not saying you should, but just saying that you can. For example, I have a couple of adult leaders who were Life and Eagle Scouts who were never in the OA. They didn't even know much (if anything) about it. It was obviously not a strong program in the areas of the country they grew up in. I also know that there are troops in my district (several of them) that "don't do OA". The DE never calls them. The District OA rep may contact them once a year to offer to do elections, but that's probably it. OA in our area is fairly week. There's one big troop that seems to use it as their senior scout program. If you are not in that troop, you are more or less out of the loop.

I'd suggest that if we want to discuss this more we spin off a new thread. The issue with this troop has less to do with the OA, and more to do with their adult leadership.

Wow, I was about to write a pretty harsh response and I noticed what Calico wrote. He is spot-on with his response.

There were two statements that just jumped out at me from 309's last post. (The same two that Calico addressed). The statement that the TC made the decision about the campout plan tells me a lot about this troop. That is clearly the responsibility of the PLC. It sounds like we have a troop that is adult-run in planning and organization, but leaves the running of activities purely up to the boys. In doing so, you have apparently one "natural leader" who has gravitated to the position of SPL and no other boys capable of handling his responsibility in his absence. It's your duty as SM to work with the ASPL in this situation to help him learn to lead. We talk a lot about "controlled failures". Opportunities for scouts to struggle in a controlled setting and then learn from their mistakes. This was a great opportunity for you as the Scoutmaster to mentor and train a future leader of your troop. Unfortunately, that opportunity was missed when it became a blame-game by the TC on the SPL and the OA.

As for the SPL resigning as OA Rep, that's no big deal for right now. You've got bigger problems in your troop than OA. Take a year off of OA if you have to.

You need to get working on your leadership challenges now. It starts with you. Where you go next is up to you. I would say that your next step is not to work with the boys (other than apologizing to the SPL and ASPL on how the adults mishandled this), but to work with your TC instead. They need to understand their place. Organize a Troop Committee Training, which includes the "Troop Committee Challenge" game. It's a great learning experience and will help them understand their roles. Barry (Eagledad) says it a lot, that one of the most important jobs of the SM is communicating with the parents. This is a prime example.

I'm speaking from experience here. About 2 years ago I was in your shoes. It wasn't exactly the same issue, but there were some similarities. I started with the Troop Committee, followed by the ASMs, and finally with the PLC. This took place over about 3-6 months. It took 6-12 months to start seeing the fruits of my labor, but things did turn around for the better.

Good luck to you. If you're in my neighborhood I'd be happy to have a cup of coffee with you and share you more of my experiences. You are at an important stage. Take this opportunity to turn things around. You've made some mistakes, but this can be a catalyst for change. Be humble, be honest. You can make it happen.

I don't know about scouter.com, but there are a number of free counters out there that will work with any website.

On a sidenote, counters are relatively ineffective and considered very "1990s". Counters do not accurately reflect how many people visit your site, it just counts how many times a person browses to the page that the counter is on. Therefore, a person who hits your front page and immediately leaves is counted as one visit while a person in your troop that may have your calendar page book marked and checks there regularly is never counted. A third person who bounces all around your site and hits refresh on your front page several times may be counted a dozen or more times. Thus the inaccuracy.

Lots of good ideas here. With the trip being next year it limits several options.So many good fundraisers take a year or two to build momentum. We're doing a Flag Lease program that generated pretty good profits the first year, but will yield even greater results during subsequent years.

For a one-time deal, rummage sales are pretty good. Also, Scout Popcorn isn't bad. I think guys get tired of selling it year after year, but if you really pushed them this one time... who knows.

Mulch and flowers are pretty good fundraisers around here. I know of a couple of troops that have partnered with a nursery to sell flowers. They deliver them to the home. They make a nice profit on them. Another does much and offers two prices, one for delivered and another to have it spread. I don't remember the exact prices, but I think it was 2x or 3x the price of the mulch to have it spread. It's a great use of your youth labor to generate profits.

scoutldr - I'll politely disagree with two of your comments.

" neither the Troop Committee nor the PLC has the authority to say 'we don't do OA.'"

There are several troops in our area that don't do OA. I can't speak to why. My guess is it probably has something to do with them not understanding it. If the troop doesn't want to participate in it, there's little the OA can do to force it. It becomes imperative on the OA to offer a program that attracts the boys to want to be involved. And, if parents have a negative feeling about it and fill their son's heads with that, it will be hard for the OA to overcome that obstacle.

Also, don't forget that the OA is not the universal BSA honor society. There is Mic-o-say and other programs in some areas of the country. BSA and OA are two separate entities and a troop can certainly operate without involvement in the OA.

"To me, it's akin to saying 'we don't do merit badges' or 'we don't do religious awards.'"

I beg to differ. Merit Badges are part of the advancement program, which is one of the methods used to deliver the scouting program. The OA is an optional honor society, which enhances the delivery of the outdoor method, but is not an essential part of it. You really can't do advancement (past First Class) without Merit Badges. But you can do the outdoor program without the OA.

Also, Religious awards are an individual decision. The troop has no role in the program (other than to promote it if they choose). The individual scout works with his pastor or counselor to complete the award of his choice. This is very different from both advancement and the OA.

I'm not trying to pick-nits here. I just think the comparison is flawed.

Let me echo the applause for Barry's post. He nailed it (as he so often does). Follow your instincts. Help the dad get over the hump and he'll be the biggest help in making this happen. As SM's we always have "projects". My project has been with me since he was a Wolf (that's 7 years now). He's come a long way and he's now one of the best Den Chief's I've seen. He's a long way from a perfect scout, but he's come so far it's impossible not to smile about him. He continues to be "work in progress", but I know he's so much farther than if he hadn't had scouts. I look forward to presenting an Eagle badge to him some day. It's with these kids that scouts can make such an impact. Take your time and do what you do best. Trust him and hold him accountable.

An additional thought regarding the troop not functioning as well without their SPL. Last year I had an outstanding SPL (who just happened to be my son). Last November we have an annual overnigher with the Webelos following Scouting for Food. It conflicted with a church activity that he really wanted to participate in. I told him it was his call and he chose the church activity. (It's only fair, scouting knocks him out of so many things, this was an easy one to miss.) The campout did not go as smoothly without him. It was a learning experience for the other leaders. Some questioned why I let him go, but I think it's good every once in a while for your other leaders to have to step up and take the lead. As the SM, you often have to work harder on these campouts in order to make things work, but it's good training for the rest. They also learn to value their SPL a little more in the process.

In my opinion, this is overstepping the bounds of the Committee's function. They provide the "ways and means" to carry out the troop's program. Their only role in the program is to (1) approve the troop's annual program plan and (2) ensure that the SM is operating the troop within the rules and guidelines of the BSA and the Charter Org. While they can and should be able to voice opinions, as those providing the financial support would be expected to do, they don't have the responsibility of dictating changes to the program. With all that said, you need a good working relationship with your committee, so I'd try to bring this to resolution.

One missing element in your comments here. What do the boys want to do? In the end, if they boys don't want to do OA, it's going to be hard to get it going. You and your SPL will have an uphill battle if both the committee and the boys don't support the idea.

Some of it is simply the uphill challenge of getting people to use the web for day-to-day information. Even though virtually everyone in my troop has access to e-mail and the web, some check it once a week at best.

I echo the thoughts the others have expressed. Try to determine what your ultimate reason for the site is. Potential reasons are commuinicating to members, recruiting, or pride in unit. All of these are valid, but require different focus. You can try to meet more than one purpose, but if you try to do all equally, you end up with a cluttered site that is hard to follow.

I like ASM59's ideas. He's trying to build what we call "viral interest". By building interest in these "hidden messages" he has developed a following from the boys who want to find the information. It's like when KFC ran that commercial that required you to go frame-by-frame with your Tivo to see it, or back when bands put backwards lyrics on their albums so fans would spend hours trying to figure out the meanings.

I've found that many (if not most) people will generally only use the web when the have to. I used to print out advancement status reports, unit calendars, rosters, and other information periodically and make them available to the troop. I've stopped doing all that because it's available on the website. To a certain degree you have to use this "tough love" approach with your families. When someone calls and asks for that trip information, tell them to check the web. If they want a unit calendar, remind them of the URL...

Similarly, when I notice people asking me for specific information on a repeated basis, I try to figure out a way to put it on the website. I'm about to set up a way for us to manage our e-mail lists, because everyone currently has their own and it's causing communication issues. Figure out what those things are and put them on your site.

Finally, I remind them as often as possible of the website. At one COH I mentioned it so many times that it became a running joke for a while. "IT'S ON THE WEBSITE!", was the battle cry. Eventually, folks stopped asking me for the info they knew was out there.

Good luck!

I've seen it done. We haven't had any Eagles yet, but I'm sure they'll want to do that. We usually have a slideshow set to music at our Court of Honors.

Well put Beavah.

I've recently tranformed from a roller/folder to stuffer. I received the advice from several outdoorsmen that I hold in high regard. It's primarily for the reasons mentioned - waterproofing, creases, etc. It's also easier to teach to your young scouts, but that's another issue.

Congrats. Over the next few years you'll experience joy and frustration, excitement and depression, optimism and second-guessing... The role of SM is lots of fun, but with any position worth holding, it has its challenges. Keep your spirits, stay true to the scouting program, live by the scout oath and law and HAVE FUN.

Our troop has had this discussion as well. For Patrol-level posiitons, we do not credit the POR, nor do they wear a patch. HOWEVER, we (the PLC in conjunction with the SM/ASMs) decided that the position of QM was so critical, that we decided to treat the Patrol QMs as a troop position. In other words, today we have three patrols. Therefore, we have three Troop QMs, one from each patrol. Each is responsible for his patrol gear, and collectively they are responsible for the troop gear. It's a new concept, we've only been going with it a few months. It seems to be working out well for us.

To quote another thread... "horse hockey"

This is another urban legend. Why, I had a young lad show up a Court of Honor this past summer wearing a MB Sash with ZERO merit badges on it. He'd only been in scouts for about a month. I was proud of him for taking pride in the uniform and wanting to dress the part.

1. I think this has been answered. Common sense should prevail.

One option, if you have access to a bus (church or otherwise) and a couple of CDL drivers, you can usually push on for more hours. We haven't done that yet, but I know some troops that have.

3. Side trips are great and break up the monotony of the trip. Some of the guys may grumble, but historic tours are a great way to enrich the boys and expose them to some things they would have otherwise missed.

4. Sure, use the buddy system and checkpoints. Designate a first-aid location as the rally point for lost/injured/sick scouts. Then check there periodically through the day. (I remember doing this one time with a church group and walked in to find one of my chaperones and one of the teenagers both in there throwing up).

5. Church floors or military places work great. Since 9/11 you pretty much have to have someone in the military traveling with you to get those accomodations.

We have done the cheap hotel route. It does take an extra level of supervision (turn off those pay-tv channels!).

6. For longer trips we usually reimburse the drivers for whatever they spent on gas. We factor that into the cost of the trip.

I'm sure there are some folks that can give you line-by-line description from the book. In short, the DE is responsible for making sure scouting is successful in his/her district. This includes working with the district committee members to make sure they are getting their job done, working with unit leaders when they have issues, occasionally touching base with Charter Organizations to make sure things are going well and yes - raising money for scouting in their district.

In general I've found that if I don't see our DE, things are going well. If I see him a lot (other than normal district functions), then things are probably in trouble. That's because he's mainly focused on keeping the bottom 20% of units afloat, and starting new units on top of that. If my unit is running well, he's good to leave me alone.

Gee, what is it with Web parents these days. Some want to go early, others want to stay around pass their age limits.

We had this issue this past summer. A 4th grade brother wanted to cross over with his 5th grade brother. He had completed the necessary work for his AOL, but didn't have the age requirement yet. He visited our troop from a pack we're not afiliated with. They asked me if he could join, and I told them that if he had earned the AOL and was the minimum age to join Scouts, he could. (I wasn't aware of the full story). The parents didn't realize that he hadn't really earned the AOL yet. They show up wanting to sign him up and send him on a canoe trip with his brother. I looked up the rules and explained to them the issue. They weren't happy with me. The older brother came on up, but the younger one hasn't expressed interest in crossing over since. (He's now old enough).

Bottom line is he CAN cross over August, once he's reached the age requirement. You have to find a troop willing to do this. Until then, he should get the most out of Cub Scouts that he can. If there's a troop that is open to the idea of letting him cross over in August, then go ahead and build a relationship there. Maybe he can come on a couple of campouts as a Webelos recruit. It's up to the troop to accept this, however. I don't believe the parents can force them.

It's already been well documented. This is against the rules. Explain the parents that life can go on, the world doesn't hinge around him earning his AOL. Encourage him to start Boy Scouts and take on the new adventures.

I think your SPL is doing the right thing and you should back him up.

Little things sometimes help, like having an adult tap them on the shoulder to calm down. Also, I've found that often peer pressure is the key to solving this.

Another idea is for you to talk to their parents. Find out what makes them tick, and what they do to reign them in. I used to have a scout with a real behavior issue. I found out that he has a hard time being told "no". But, if you tell him "no, because...", he can usually deal with it. I started doing that with him, and it was amazing how he turned around.

Good luck.

What Beaver said...

I'm kind of a DO purist, but I still find myself sometimes lining with foil just to make cleanup easier. We love DO lasagna, but it's a challenge to clean. The foil doesn't eliminate cleaning, but it helps.

Welcome to the forum.

(Wingnut, I love your clarification about his troop size.)

First, committee meetings have to be open. BSA prohibits any "secret meetings".

Second, we encourage parents to attend. It's a great way to get information out and for them to hear what is going on with the troop, first hand from it's adult leaders. While we hope the boys communicate effectively to the parents, this gives us a second method to ensure communications gets through.

Third, if a parent begins to attend and take interest, sign them up! It's a great time to recruit parents to be part of your committee.

Teambuilding activities can be lots of fun. Get the scouts and Webelos to work together. Let the older scouts run the event.

Welcome to the forums. We look forward to getting to know you. I hope your excitement is contagious!