EagleInKY

E - You are exactly right. As I was reading the thread I was thinking of the same type of example. My wife's family always celebrated Thanksgiving Dinner on Thursday and opened presents on Christmas Eve. My family was always traveling on Thanksgiving and had dinner on Friday or Saturday, but we always opened presents Christmas day. How fortunate our family traditions complemented each other. If they hadn't worked out so well, we would have adjusted our traditions to fit the new situations we were faced with. And, of course, our traditions have changed over time.

Our troop also has traditions. Even though we've only been around 4 years, we have several that we do:

- We have a "Tenderfoot Weekend" Campout shortly after crossover to teach new scouts the basics.

- We gather for a troop photo in our camp t-shirts in front of the sign before we leave Summer Camp.

- We have a pot-luck lunch after church on Scout Sunday and follow with a Court of Honor.

- We adopt a needy family or soldier at Christmas.

- and so forth....

These are part of the troop's legacy. Hopefully, some of these traditions will long outlast me or the boys who are currently in the troop. And hopefully new traditions will be developed over time as current ones fade away.

I strongly encourage units to have an audit/review of the books once a year. Usually you can find another member of the troop committee to do this. We have an accountant on our committee who does this for us. Additionally, I encourage units to rotate the treasurer duties every 2 years. This reduces the chance (or even the appearance of) impropriety. It also forces you to rotate a rather challenging, thankless job.

Nothing more to add, other than to say Mark gave you a GREAT answer. Use it wisely!

We experienced some similar problems when we did troop cooking. We did this until we had close to 20, and then decided to switch to Patrol cooking. It's been great ever since we "converted". I think the boys act much more decisively when they are doing it for themselves. I've also found that over time they get a good feel for what each other likes. Now their planning consists of coming up with general ideas, and then let their patrol grubmaster work out the details.

As for SM guidelines, I don't get after them too often about their eating habits. We do talk sometimes about food groups and nutritious meals, but I don't worry about it too much. One of my concerns is that they plan appropriately for the schedule and type of activity. For example, if we are planning on hitting the river at 8:30 AM, they can't plan on a big cowboy breakfast that will take 2 hours to cook and clean up. What we do is have the PLC outline basic guidelines (breakfast needs to be quick, need to be able to pack the lunch, you may want some good warm food for dinner, etc.). We then leave it up to the patrols to develop a menu that fits those restrictions.

Good luck! And remember, the pain of switching to patrol cooking is offset by those delicious meals you get to eat as adults! This past weekend our dinner was pork chops, baked potatoes, salad and desert. And, yes, we kept it to $3 per person.

Welcome to the forum. It's great to have scouts in here to provide the youth perspective. We look forward to learning from you.

Recently I was reminded of the stages of team development (forming/storming/norming/performing) and used the concept to explain to my ASMs why we had to change the way we were approaching some things.

Here's the "official" rules from the BSA website. Generally, if you follow the rules regarding logo, size, color, etc., you shouldn't have any concern.

http://www.scouting.org/identity/contents/11.html

The trademarks and logos of the Boy Scouts of America are protected by a 1916 act of Congress (36 U.S.C. 27) as well as by a variety of registrations with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. The 1916 act specifically gives the Boy Scouts of America the sole and exclusive right to use its "emblems, badges, descriptive and designating marks" in connection with carrying out its purposes.

These and all art or logotypes obtained from the National Council, Boy Scouts of America, are the exclusive property of the Boy Scouts of America and must be used and displayed as shown in this manual or official artwork unless otherwise stated in writing from an authorized officer of the Boy Scouts of America. In other words, they must appear with any ownership symbols exactly as received, and no additional symbols are to appear in connection with them.

If the manual or official artwork indicates that the artwork or logotype is the subject of a U.S. Trademark Registration Certificate, then it should appear with the symbol. It is customary that the symbol is used once in the headline of an advertisement (if it is used in an ad or a poster) and then the first time it is used in the text.

The symbol is placed on the upper right-hand shoulder of the last letter of the trademark (if it is a word mark) or on the upper right-hand shoulder of the symbol (if it is a design mark) and in a size that is approximately one-third the size of the largest letter or element in the trademark (but never so small that it can't be read).

It is also desirable, but not as critical, to place a statement at the bottom of any advertisement or poster that clearly identifies trademarks or design marks of the Boy Scouts of America. This might read as follows:

"BE PREPARED is a registered trademark of the Boy Scouts of America."

If you have any questions concerning correct trademark usage, please contact the Custom Communication Division at the national office for further guidance.

There are certainly debates over what "boy-led" means, and in particular how it relates to youth leadership. As the SM, I do not believe boy-led means I turn a blind eye and allow the troop to fall apart.

Here's what I do. When the boys are nominated for SPL, I have veto power over any name. If I know the boy is only doing it for the "power" of the position, I'm probably not going to allow him to run. I use the opportunity to coach him on why he's not prepared and what he should do to be more prepared at the next election. I realize some won't like this approach, but I believe it's a fair balance. I don't veto anyone just because I don't think they'll be a good leader. Our current SPL is one I've really struggled with. In so many ways I'd love to replace him with a better leader. But I'd rather help him grow and allow the troop to limp along until the next election.

I would discourage you from asking them to not come to the meeting. Adult association is one of the methods of scouting and meetings are just one of those opportunities for scouts to interact with adults.

I would have a pow-wow with your adults and set a new standard. Make sure they understand what their role is at troop meetings. What's their role? First, and foremost, it's whatever the SPL asks them to do. Additionally, our job is to assist the troop leaders in running the meeting. Assist is the key word. What does that mean? Here are some ideas:

- Helping keep them on time.

- Dealing with discipline issues.

- Providing a helping hand when needed.

Occasionally I'll interject an idea if I think I can add value without undermining whoever is in charge.

Our adults hang out in a separate room. We have our opening in a fellowship hall. The scouts then break out into various areas around the church. The adults usually stay in the fellowship hall or in the foyer. Rarely does the meeting take place in the same room as the adults. I and the ASMs roam the church and bounce between checking in on the guys and socializing with the parents. If the boys are in the sanctuary or outside, some of the parents will occasionally hang out and watch from afar. Overall, the adults keep their distance and enjoy watching the boys grow.

Welcome back mighty warrior!

We attempt to make campouts a zero-budget item. In other words, the cost of the campout is covered by those that participate in it. We use a fairly set formula and hope it works. So, let's say the cost for campsites is $100, and we estimate that 20 people will attend, we charge $5 to each person (in addition to other costs - food, activities, etc.).

Sometimes, if a trip is getting a little expensive, we'll charge a less and let the troop absorb some of the cost. For example, we had a canoe trip that was getting up around $35. We only charged $25 or $30 (don't remember now). On the other hand, we've had some very inexpensive trips where we make up for it. We never charge less than $10, so on some overnighters, we'll make a few back. By the end of the year, they pretty much balance out.

John-in-KC gave a good overview of the differences.

I think we're comparing apples to oranges. For example, if I said winning a Presidential Election is similar to winning two NCAA Basketball Championships, you'd scratch your head and say "huh?". But there are similarities. They both require raising money, both require a dedicated fan base, both require lots of sweat and energy, both require you to be opened up to public scrutiny and unsolicited feedback, both require a game plan, and so forth. But even with all the similarities, they are two drastically different items.

When I look back on mine (and I've done both), the Eagle project seemed to be a much more daunting task. If I were to do them both today, maybe the ESLP would be easier. But given where I was in my personal development, the ESLP was, by far, the more challenging experience.

As with anything, you can use statistics to make almost any point. The way I've always understood the "less than 5%" or "around 2%" numbers was that it was of all the scouts that ever joined, at any level, what percentage made Eagle.

For example, if I take the kids my son's age, I can look back at all the boys that came through his den as a Cub Scout. I should know how many there were, but I don't. I remember there being 10 that started together as Tigers. My son is the only one of that group. Others joined as Wolves, Bears, Webelos and Scouts. I would guess that close to 25 joined during Cubs, and a couple more since then. Seven received their AOL and crossed over to Boy Scouts. Of all the boys his age, four are still active in our troop, three are active in other troops. That would make seven out of 25-30 are still active (Star or Life Ranks). That's about 25%, and I think most of them will make Eagle. Now, I think we've got a great program and our retention numbers are higher than most of the troops in our area.

When I look at the age group one year older than my son. Only two boys are going to make it (one is Eagle, one is working on his project). Of the group a year ahead of that, only one or two are still active. These seem to be closer to the 5% number.

Welcome to the forum and welcome back to Cub Scouting. The main thing is to have fun. Get trained, so you understand the purpose behind what we are doing, and so you can offer the boys the best scouting experience possible. Good luck.

I would classify scouts (in regards to attendance patterns) into these groups:

1) Those who are very involved and this is their primary activity. These scouts are present close to 100% of the time. They may miss occasionally due to a sport, band or school function. But it's the exception.

2) Those that are interested, but are over-programmed. These are the kids in several sports. When sports don't get in the way, they are very involved. But you may go weeks or months and rarely see them during their various seasons.

3) Those that consider scouts a filler activity and get involved whenever they feel like it.

In our troop I would say that about 50-60% are in group 1, 25-30% in group 2, and 10-20% in group 3.

Given those percentages, we are likely to have about 75% of the troop "involved" at any given time. I generally assume those kind of numbers when we're planning an activity. We are currently at 25 boys. I usually assume we're going to have 16-20 participate in an activity or at a troop meeting. And that usually holds true.

As for the patrol system, you may want to consider this in forming patrols. We have a patrol of normally very strong, active, dedicated scouts. I would categorize all of them to be in that first group. But several of them are in marching band. So, for a couple of months in the fall, they miss quite a bit. During that time this normally active patrol may sometimes have only 2 or 3 members present. It would have been better if these guys were spread across the patrols, but then they wouldn't be with their best friends. It's a catch-22.

We've had debates over patrol sizes. I'm of the opinion that about 8 or 9 is the right number, given that you'll probably have 5-7 at any given activity. If you have a patrols of 6, you could easily have an event with only 2 or 3 boys.

We plan our program around the ones who are active. For example, a scout who never misses a troop meeting or activity would have no problem earning First Class in his first year. On the other hand, we don't make special arrangements for those scouts who appear when it's convenient. For example, a few years ago we had a scout that missed every orienteering event we had over two years. There was always a conflict with one of his many sports. (He's a category 2 scout). We didn't set up an orienteering course just so he could get his First Class. It was up to him to find a way to participate the next time the opportunity arose.

As for making it easy to miss things, I have heartburn over this at times as well. Band Directors, soccer coaches and others have no problem saying that they must be present 100% of the time or they don't play. But we don't do anything like that. I think that's why we get the situation of scouts taking the back seat at times. I ask parents to put scouts on an equal playing field. When there are conflicts, they should sometimes choose scouts over the other activities so your son can see that it is important too.

The one thing I've started to do is to hold firm on deadlines for signing up for things. I have a few of those "show up when they feel like it" types that always show up the week after a deadline for an activity. They always play the "I didn't know about it" card, and I've generally been nice and let them in. But we're taking a harder stand now and are starting to say no. It will be interesting to see if it changes involvement levels. I don't think it will. I think it will just lead to them getting frustrated and leaving.

I've rambled, but the final thought I'd make is that it's our job to try and make scouts as fun an activity as possible. If we are doing fun things, boys will want to participate. Oh, there are exceptions, but it generally holds true.

Congrats John in KC from John in KY.

I used to be an Antelope

SR-606

hunt - Good response. I concur.

I don't want to pass judgment on the lad. I think it's entirely possible that he was up to youthful "antics". A good friend of mine in High School decided to make a homemade explosive with some of our friends (luckily, I wasn't there, or I probably would have gone along with it). There plan was to blow up some plastic toy cars for fun. In planning their fun, he blew off 1 1/2 fingers. (Ouch). He was lucky, and was still able to play the Saxophone. Kids do stupid things. I hope that's all this was.

The main thing is that it's fun. The primary campout where we have Webelos visit was this past weekend. It's a simple overnighter, we go out mid-day on Saturday and wrap up Sunday morning. It's local, so those with conflicts can at least spend some time with us.

This year we had seven Webelos spend the night and one spend the day. The guys had organized an orienteering course with some scout skills stations (kind of like a Klondike without the sleds). This is something we do every year to practice for Klondike. After which they played a variety of games (football, capture the flag, etc.). We put the Webelos in with our first year scouts for cooking purposes. This helps them make a connection with the boys that are about the same age. The parents eat with the troop's adults. After dinner, the boys played some nighttime games until they turned in. Fun, easy, and a lot of interaction between Webelos (boys and dads) and the Troop.

Ed, I respectfully disagree. I understand why we should you age-appropriate guidelines in activities and why we would expect a 13 year old first time SPL to perform different from a 16 year old 3 term SPL. However, I do not believe we alter requirements based on age. If that were the case, we'd take it easier on the 12 year old taking lifesaving than we do the 17 year old in the same class. If a 13 year old wants to be Eagle but doesn't have the maturity to carry out the project at an expected level, then he's simply not ready. Get some leadership experience and come back prepared next year, or the year after...

You've received some good advice (as you always will from Mark, OGE & Barry).

This is truly a test of leadership for your son. This is what makes Scouting so special. He won't get this type of experience in any other youth activity that I'm aware of. Here are some random thoughts....

Recently I had a scout tell me he was leaving the troop. He's closing in on 17, not likely to make Eagle, and is not enjoying it as much as he used to. I asked him why and he said it was because of the immaturity of the leaders. I looked him square in the eye and told him I agreed that our leaders were young and lacked experience, and that it was a shame that our older guys didn't step up to the plate and lead the troop when asked. He didn't have a response to this.

Seeking a mentor is a great idea and hopefully he can find someone to help. If not a scout, perhaps an ASM or active Committee Member can provide some assistance. Sometimes just having an adult sit in the back of the room to observe can make a big difference. The patrol will usually behave better and the observer can get insight into where your son needs to work on his skills.

If there was another boy willing to be APL, I'd suggest your son talk to the current APL about possibly removing him from the position and putting the other boy in. But that doesn't sound like an option.

The coaching I'd provide the APL (if I were his SM) is that if he wants a POR in the future, he needs to perform at his best in his current role. Otherwise he might find himself without a position again the next time around.

My advice to your son would be for him to lead! Take charge of his patrol. Not in a bossy, arrogant way, but in a "you picked me as PL so let's go" type of way. Take charge of what needs to be done. If the boys don't want to help with the menu, tell them that he'll pick his favorites for them to eat. Positive energy and a "we're in this together" attitude will help him get things done. If the APL tells him his idea is stupid, tell him to stay home, because those going are ready to have a great time.

Good luck to your son. A couple of victories (good outings, meetings, etc.) and he'll have them on his side.

I personally don't have an issue with it being self-funded. Some get fired up about the idea and feel that the scout should raise the funds. There view is that this is part of the lessons learned in the project. I disagree. My Eagle Project was a big challenge, but all materials were provided by the church. I provided leadership and free labor.

I understand why some have this point of view. (Mommy and daddy paying junior's way and all). But that's not a fair reason to add to the requirement.

It's a true ASM. JASM is a youth role.

So, he would qualify as the 2nd adult on a campout. (One adult must be at least 21).

Beavah - Yeah, the rules are a little convoluted (can do it as a venturer but not a scout) and all. However, I beg to differ with your thought that it's no big deal for an 18 YO (FORMER BOY SCOUT) to tent with his 17 year old buddy. You've left yourself wide open for problems if it turned out something was going on there. The scout needs to understand that he's reached another stage in life, and that there are adjustments we must make.

Welcome to the forum!

Hunt - I'll give you a different POV on that. I turned 18 right before going to college and signed on to be an ASM. I camped with the troop over Christmas holidays and a few times over the next few summers. I even made a return trip to Philmont (and made it to several of the shakedowns before the trip). So, it can be done.

Admittedly, it was easier to come back and act like an adult after being away to college for a semester. It has to be much harder if they turn 18 while still in school.