Eagledad

Great response Mark

I agree with most of your reply. I don't know if what we really have here is conflict of presentations or respect of possible solutions. I do believe a forum is an avenue of presenting lots of ideas allowing the adult to determine the best possible solution to their situation.

On this subject, Pack899 is concerned that the advancement is going to fast thus the quality of the program is not giving the boy the best possible program. There could be cause for concern if the scouts are not learning the skills that are presented in the advancement part of the program because the habits developed learning those skills are very important for leadership later in the scouts life. I find that most of the skills a 14 years old and above scout uses while he is a leader were learned in his first three years of scouting. If a boy is rushed through learning his knots, first-aid and cooking, he will miss out on developing the skills of setting goals, initiating a schedule to meet those goals, and the since of a accomplishment once the goal is met. Youth leaders who don't have those leadership skills tend to act lazy and need lots of support from adults. They aren't really lazy so much as they don't know how to get started. These are the scouts who tend to raise their voice under stress and dont come to as many activities because they are afraid of their performance. They fall behind in their duties and many times just don't show up. So I believe scouts skills in the first couple of years are critical.

What you have to watch for Pack899 is how the Troop presents the classes and signs off on the skills. If all the scouts are herded in a room, the skills are taught and then all the scouts leave with that skill completed, then that is of some concern. Instead make an announcement that a knots class will be presented next week, next campout, on Sunday, whenever. Ask the scouts to write that down if they want to learn that skill. Now you are encouraging setting a goal and initiating on that goal. If he comes, it's on his plan, not the troops. If he comes, he will be rewarded by learning a cool new skill and eventally advancing. As he accomplishes the one goal, he should be asked (pushed a little) to set another goal. Write that goal down in his book and even suggest he prepare a plan in his head. It could be learning two more knots or getting second class. By the time he reaches first class, he will have set dozens of small goals and initiated on them dozens of times. He will have learned a few leadership habit most adults struggle with. All the troop needs to do is make sure they don't push the scout through the ranks, but instead teach the boy how to set his path and work toward his goals. The adults should care less about the scouts goals, but focus on his ability to get there by himself. You will find some boys goals will be two years in getting second class. So long as he is imitating on his plan, he is fine.

Does this sound like it makes a little sense?

Barry

>>Eagledad,

Your entire post is based on a false premise.>Nowhere in the BSA resources or in any post I have ever written on this topic have I said anything that puts advancement before program.>I have begged for leaders to follow the program and the adventure and youth leadership promised them in the Boy Scout Handbook. If you provide the program that the Scout Handbook promises to boys the advancement would happen constantly and naturally>The vast majority of posts on this forum are from leaders who want to change the program or complain about the program, when in deed they have never used the program.>Why arent more posters asking "how do I make this come alive" rather than "here is what we should kill"? >First Class Emphasis is a written plan on how to make the first year for a scout exciting, fun and productive. The methods of Advancement, Outdoors, Youth Leadership, and the Patrol Method all help to extend and develop the program until the scout turns 18. And yet, many leaders on this board dont use it. Instead they flood this forum with complaints that boys dont have good attendance, quit the first year or when they turn 16, dont want to lead, dont know how to lead, don't retain skills. When will they see that it is the adult leader's refusal to embrace the program that has caused every problem they have experienced?>The problem is in the mirror, the answer is in the scouting program. >I am really disappointed that you would misrepresent me so completely. In what explanation of the First Class Emphasis program or any other post did I ever say advance at any cost?>Of course we lose the most boys the first year. Troops that do not employ the New Scout Patrol and the First Class Emphasis Program lose scouts by the droves.>It is not a poor program it is that some units impliment it poorly. >In the future please be gracious enough to ask my opinion rather than tell it to me. >There are about 7 or 8 posters on this board who really know their stuff. > But they spend most their posts defending scouting from the vast arrray of complainers who want to change a program they have yet to learn how to do. >There are also some very vocal ones that when it comes to the real program are in a complete fog and wouldn't recognize good scouting if it bumped into them.>The hope for the others is that they are able to tell the difference, and begin asking for help rather than feed the complainers.

>>BSA does not have any specs on ice climbing.

>>Units that use it see the difference, units that don't whine that kids have to many conflicting activities.

>>They can be very 'adult' like in their discussions.

Ah! That makes since Rooster. Still, isn't our job to help them through their struggles. I'm one to not hide tempation, but help them develope the disapline to deal with it.

I don't disagree with your approach, we all have our own styles of doing this scouting stuff.

Thanks for the explination. One other question, I think I've seen our scouts with them, but what are these magic cards?

Scouting Cheers

Barry

>>Second, I would not allow the game playing (Magic, cards, etc.) until after the last merit badge session.

Hi all

Dsteeles words are golden, read his post several times. I like summer camp for new scouts because it is really their first experience learning independence. The only rules that I asked our SPL to strickly enforce were to always have a buddy and let your PL know where you are at. Other than that, this is your place to learn, play, adventure and grow.

Let me ask, why are you worried about down time? What do you think down time is? One persons passion to fish is another to watch the clouds. Encourage the older scouts to work with the younger ones on advancment, but as dsteele points out, if they aren't in the mood, allow them to learn the responsibilities of expectations.

I have watched troops with new adults at summer camp. Prepare yourself to NOT:

Lead the troop anywhere. Not to meals, campfires, health inspection. No anywhere. The SPL is the boss, allow him to be the boss.

Don't watch the performance of your scouts in classes. Don't go with them to classes, either get there before them, or afterr them, but give them a chance to walk to class themselves. Eventally you can walk because you are going the same way or you heard neat things about class. But they must feel you trust them to get there.

If you don't plan to help the instructor, then don't go to class the first couples days. At some time in our sons life, we have to let them go, even if it's for an hour. Isn't this the time?

Don't check on their performance as a check to see if they are doing there work. As Dsteele kind of points out, someone at home will point that out. Instead listen to what they learned. Offer to help if they need someone else, but not as the adult concerned about performance of the badge, but as the adult who wants to help them if the need a resource.

Don't make up the cheers and yells for your scouts. I just love to hear a patrol do a cheer only a 40 year old would understand. Emcourage them to be creative.

Finally our troop has a reputation for having fun at summer camp. What do we do that many don't. We take a few games they can play between their classes like wiffle ball, foot ball and anything that is fun to throw. We take checkers, chess, cards and other games those who want to just sit and have fun or on rainy days. I have a camp gaget competition that they get three days to build. Lots of points for knots, lots of knots. I have one for best skit where we usually do our own campfire the night before the Camps Campfire. I usually carry penny candy and fireballs that I hand out when I see a good turn. We do jokes and usually I pick a theme. If some scout does a good joke, he gets a reward. Last year was elephant jokes. The year before was bear jokes. One night we sleep outside under the stars. I carry a few plastic spiders for adult tents. Onc year I had a plastic snake. Oh the humanity.

But mostly we let the boys be boys, as long as they live by the Scout Law and Oath. Once they step beyound those bounds, well the SPL and generally the older scouts had a meeting with the SM. A disapointed scoutmaster.

As for the adults, take a good book, fishing pole, or even a good camera. Some of the shots will be priceless. Assume the best, prepare for the unexpected. Summer camp is a wonderland for the all. It's one of my favorite Scouts places.

Barry

Wow Sharon, I just read your last post. I think your Troop choose their SM wisely.

I love this Scouting stuff.

Barry

>>When a Scout is told to police the area around his tent and says, "No" is that the same as when a Scout is told to like the SPL's boots and says, "No"?

>>My question, in this long diatribe, is HOW do you train the parents to allow the SM to handle the situation when it arises at a troop function/event? HOW do you teach the boys the Golden Rule when the parents of said boys have no conscience? HOW do I teach the boys hazing is wrong--and not a joke?

Good Scouting Morning All

When a boy says no, that is when the line has been drawn. The Philmont staff was showing there frustration this year because back country staffs can nolonger require the trash being dropped off to be condenced to very small sizes. They were told that such a request was on the verge of hazing. Of course it's alway someone who has gone too far the forces such a change. Apparently some staff were intertained by tearing the small bundles appart and ordering the crews to start over.

Scouting Cheers

Barry

Hi Dan

We've been to Quetico twice and love it. I hope you get a boat ride to Hook Island, that is fun also and it sure helps you get a good start. Be sure and say hi to Canadan Ranger for us. She is interesting to say the least.

Mark explained how we also select crew leaders. Usually its the guy who pushed the idea of the trek in the first place. In your case if one hasn't been selected, I usually ask a scout who I think is capable, but needs leadership experience. He needs to understand the responsibility and the pressure that goes along with it. It can be a long week for someone not ready. It will also be a test on you because you havn't got in the habit of turning to your crew leader to let him answer questions that are asked of you.

One other thing our fairly new SM learned the hard way. In our Troop, the SPL is still responsibile for not leaving anyone and maintains control until the crews leave on their treks. If your SPL is not going, you need to assign one, it can be a crew leader. You also still need a quarter master to make sure the gear is loaded up correctly. Our SM who had not been on a Venture Patrol treks before ignored this. I was pulling our trailer, so I asked him to get me a quartermaster, which surprised him. I still wonder who he thought was going to load the gear. He didn't get an SPL and while we have great scouts who can take care of themselves, we almost left a scout behind. He couldn't understand why it happened until I asked him who usually checks the cars.

Have a great trip at Quetico, I hope you see the Moose (Meese?) that we saw. Oh and take a backpacking hammock, they have great trees for hammocks. I finished a Tom Clancy book and stayed out of the boys hair. Oh, I know of a great fishing spot, but I need to find my map.

Oh how I love this scouting stuff

Barry

>>My frustration last night had more to do with parents blaming ADD or ADHD for their childs behavior.

>>you are not doing this boy or his family a favor by sweeping it under the rug.

I guarantee you, his outburst/plea for attention will be louder and possibly more dangerous the next time.

Hi Mark

It's been a little while, but my understanding is that 16 is the only BSA restriction which you can find on the tour permit. Any other restriction is a unit restriction. Our Troop has a 21 rule which prevented my 20 year old son from driving to Philmont this year. I think your son is legal at 16 and above to take anyone as far as the BSA is concerned. Check you personal insurance.

Barry

Hi Laurie

Our guys have been trained to expect their favorite meal, usually ribs for our older son, and Chineese for the younger son. And sleep as long as they want the next day. I have been trained to expect other things, but this is about the boys.

Hope to hear some great stories. You must be a wonderful mom.

Barry

>>So,until FOG either changes his behavior (which I do not expect), or until Terry and the other board operators choose to rid us of FOG again (as they did when he violated the board rules before), I see no need to continue to feed him on this board.

>>I wish our council still did the WRC the way they do in your council. Unfortantly our council built this really nice Cub Camp next to the Boy Scout camp and now the WRC program has been trashed.

My daughters pillow. We worked out a deal a few years ago where I would take something of hers so she could feel included on troop on campouts. It started as a Snow White pillow. Now its just little flowers.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

Hi All

I have experience on all sides of this subject. First, I agree the ideal number is about eight, give or take.

As the CM of a pack of 100 scouts, I was always dealing with numbers. I had one group in which my younger son was part of, a soccer team of 12 boys who all wanted to be in the same den. From the experiences of other large dens, I pretty much insisted on a split. The parents of this group are pretty close and I found two that would each take a den with the help of the other parents. The parents and boys were still not happy about the split, so I told them if it didnt work out, I would personally take the whole group. And when they reached the Webelos age, they knocked on my door and took me up on the offer. Both dens grew during the wolf/bear years, so I had 15 scouts. There den numbers were 6 and 7, so we combine the numbers to create Webelos Den 67.

There are just some groups that will not be happy unless they are together, so if they wont do the right thing, do the next best thing and work to make the group work. While I may have had 15 scouts, later it grew to 16, I divided them up into two groups or denpatrols. Then I made sure I had enough program that I could split the program part of the meeting into two parts with a parent teaching or running each part. I ran each meeting in a large room at a church where we could separate the two groups on opposite sides of the room. The whole group met together for openings, closings and games. But for the program, the groups would split and go to their program for about 15 or 20 minutes, then switch sides of the room to the other program. I had many of my meetings outside and in the park to let them run during the games. With a resource of 32 adults, I made sure I had at least three adults with me, an assistant and two program directors.

That was six years ago. How well did it work? One of the fathers enjoyed the den so much that he started his own troop and took 12 of my Webelos with him. Of the 16 Webelos, 15 stayed in the Troops for three years and 12 are still in scouts. 11 are Eagles with my son the last hold out. Several of the Eagles have told me that Webelos was some of the best scouting they remember. Obviosly from the other troop.

So if your Den is stubborn and doesnt listen to reason, then give them what they want, but split them into a couple of groups during the meeting. You can change the groups now and then if they want, but that never came up with my guys, thank goodness. Make sure you have one adult who directs the den program, but at least two others helping, and I would say three. Move your meetings somewhere with a lot, A LOT of room to allow space between the groups. I also found one hour was a bit difficult for this size, so I increased them to one and half hour meetings two times a month. Worked very well.

Good luck, I know how you feel.

Barry

Hi smaster101

I have worked with a few scouts like you desribe and the responses from the other adults here are very good. I can only add that I look for some outside interest that these guys enjoy and try to find or make up a troop job where they can apply that interest. I had one scout who absolutly hated scouts but was forced to come because his father had dreams of Eagle. After several months of struggling with this scout, I found he was a computer geek and asked him to work with our Web Page. From that time on he looked forward to attending every PLC meeting until he moved away a year later. Two years after that his family moved back and now he is finishing his Eagle. He is still kind of out there, but he is excepted by the troop and comes every week. Try to find that one interest whatever it is and fit it in the troop.

Barry

Hi sctmom

This is the best place to recruit cubs. I was brought in a few years ago to train our packs the importance of recuiting at open house. You are getting the ideas to attract the scout which brings the parents. That's when you grab them and ask if they are part of the Cub Scout experience. Tell them the virtues of the program and get their information. I teach the leaders to have a information sheet ready to fill out. You want to get every family's address, cub age, phone number and one little box for you to check if the adults could be leaders. You need to ask the question if they want to help, but ignore their answer and instead read their mind. If you think they might be good to help lead your pack, check the box and right a note to refer to later. I recuited a Webelos leader this way who turned out to be a SM a year later. He was shy and never voluntiered for anything, but when asked, he jumped.

Then go home and start building your dens. I know it's early and before Cub Night, but I usually had 90% of my pack built and ready to go before Cub Night. I just added the few scouts left from Cub Night into the already made dens.

This sounds like a lot of work, but most leaders called me back and told me that it took a lot less time calling the list made at open house then begging at Cub Night. And it was a lot easier to find the adult leaders. Most packs increased their numbers 20% when they created their list at open house and started building their pack.

Good luck and I hope you get a hundred boys because from your post here, you're one in a million. They deserve you. I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

>>I'd agree that the NSP practice is one that should be particular to the needs and size of the troop. It works in some circumstances, in others it might not.

Hi All

Just for the record, I got my pack down to 28 lbs. before water, crew gear and food. I think I did a pretty good job of getting down to only what I needed except I did take a camp chair, 20 ounces, a book to read which I didn't and a note pad for a log, which I didn't do very well. I did take Two pair of socks, three liners, two shorts and shirts. One pair of long pants which were my rain pants. One pair of polypro top and bottoms, and a fleese pullover.

So what did I not use out of all the gear, well as I said, the book and note pad and the polypro top and bottom. But that is hit and miss. The two weeks before us, crews had cold weather with rain and hail everyday. The weather changed the day after we go on the trail and temps were mild. So I can't say don't take them.

I think I could have got bellow the magic 25 number without my campchair, book and note pad. With crew gear food and water, I weighed in around 50 lbs. I was thinking about that magic 48lbs that mk9750 mentioned. I think we did OK in overall weight. The main problem was some of us, (me), didn't loose that much as the food was eaten because we mostly had crew gear where some of the crew with mostly food got very light. But I had a great crew and those who get lite as the trip went on when around asking to help the guys like me on what they could take.

This was a great subject and helped me a lot even though I've dones this for a while. Thanks all.

Barry