Eagledad

Hi All

We all agree that the best YP is two deep. That was not fboisseau's question and I wanted to understand National's intent because his question effects us at so many levels. I asked a trainer lastnight and she siad this:

These discussions need to include Merit Badge Counseler training because it doesn't teach 2 deep leadership, but that a scout needs a buddy.

TWO-DEEP leadership applies ONLY to trips and Outings.

YOUTH PROTECTION applies all the time.

TWO-DEEP says there must be 2 adults present for trips and outing.

YOUTH PROTECTION says that an adult must never be alone with a single Scout, not his/her son, at any time.

The Den and Troop Meeting would have been fine with one adult and three scouts.

It's kind of funny how she seem to make it sound so simple. And I am not saying this should be the final word, just what a trainer in our Council has taught.

I believe the best rule of thumb is to conciously stay out of situations of question.

Have a great day.

Barry

Hi all

Along with some of the ideas already mentioned, in the last six months of our Webelos program, I had my Webelos meetings at the same time and place as the troop. I did it with the intentions to get the Webelos more comfortable with Boy Scouts. The only time the Webelos and Scouts were together was for openings where the Webelos would stand in formation as their own Patrol. After that we seperated from the troop and did our own program. My Webelos were surprised to learn that the Troop openings were almost identical with their own openings they had been doing for the last year.

When they weren't needed, I noticed the parents of my Webelos would drift off from time to time to go watch the scouts in action. Sometimes we had a problem with the Webelos having so much fun with their program that the Troop scouts came over to watch.

I had sixteen Webelos, eleven of them are Eagles now, with another, my son, on the way.

I think meeting at the same time as the troop was a great experience for the boys.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

Hi mk

When I was new to scouting and naive, I used to think the SM was THE position with the most influence on the scouts. Since then I've learn the adults behind the Scoutmaster who see the big picture and think outside the box are the real influences in great troop programs. I wished I had you standing with me when I we were blazing trail. They cant see it yet, but like the new super-fast rollercoaster ride that we hesitate to get on, everyone will be smiling from ear to ear when its over. Your troop will never be the same.

Man I love Scouting Stuff.

Barry

>>During the meeting the SM acts as the Sargent at Arms. He or she is there to make sure that no one interrupts the flow of the meeting and to insure the rules of Scouting are not violated.

I feel this is a PC issue. More of perception than utility. A boy walking around with his knife strapped to his side is not as PC as the scout with a knife hidden in the pocket.

There is the percpetion that sheath knives a much bigger than the folding knives. I carry one of each while hunting and my sheath is very small and light. I use it when I need a tool put under a lot of stress like hides or bone.

My experiences with scouts and knives is that sheath knives are safer than folding knives. When used under a lot of stress, some cheap folding knives can fold back into the fingers or break at the handle. I know that most knives lock very well, but some don't lock at all. So on the purely safety side, I feel more comfortable with scouts using sheath knifes. But very few of our scouts use sheath anymore because the the new high-strength lightweight folding knives are the style.

Have a great scouting day.

Barry

Webeloree, that's kind of hard to say. I'll bet it is the same thing. We have great success with it when planned well and it's basically Troops demonstrating and teaching skills to the Webelos in a Camporee setting. We've had a few Webelos Woods (Webeloree) that were ran better than our Camporee and the Troops felt were more fun. Of course that is a different issue.

Many districts use Webelorees to train adults while the scouts are working with their Webelos.

Barry

>>Wouldn't you rather see Webelos at a Camporee on council property getting to see scout skills being performed as a competition than taking them on a primitive campout in the boonies with a latrine trowel and running them away for good?

Wonderful Day All

I had an interesting experience this morning. We took my almost 13-year-old daughter to the bus for camp. Not a scout camp, a church camp. I know, I forgot too. There are other camps besides scout camps. Anyway, this is the first time in a long time that I was not one of the adults in charge or responsible for this group, much less even going. I was just a parent standing and waiting for the bus to shut its doors and leave the parking lot. It was fun watching from the other side. Same as scouts, there are two different groups huddled together laughing and talking at world record speed. One excited and slightly nervous smaller group who I immediately identified as the new kids who have not been yet, and the other group of been their done thats. Same as the scouts, but much clearer when you not the adult everyone is trying to ask those last few questions of how much should and what happens if.

While the moms giggled in their uncertainty, the father of my daughters best friend walked over and ask, I guess youre used to this, arent you?. Yes, I said with smile. But I wasnt thinking about that really. I was thinking back at my first summer camp to Slippery Falls Scout Ranch in Oklahoma. That crisp clear cool early sunny morning with all the scouts in full uniforms. Me running to my patrol and jabbering about everything, but saying it so fast that it came out as nothing. There was the smell of canvas tents and exhaust gas fumes from the waiting bus. And that energy in the air seems to make it all feel like a dream. I remember mom and dad hanging around with the other moms and dads just quietly watching me, and I wondering why they didnt go home since I was in the care of our Patrol Leader. It was just summer camp for goodness sake. But I learned 25 years later that it was more than just camp. It was the first time one of their children was leaving for any real length of time. It was the first time they were catching the first glimpse of their oldest child turning into an adult. For them and many of the first year parents, it was the start of a week that seemed like a month. It was the beginning of the next stage of parent hood.

That was early 70s and the school bus had no A/C. a couple hours on I-35 and all the windows were open in hopes that the breeze would push the almost 100 degree air out the bus. There was singing and jokes. The older scouts telling stories (slightly scary and untrue) to the younger guys. And the adults up front chatting among themselves.

Im not going to summer camp this year. We have a new SM taking the reins and my sons are taking me to Philmont for two weeks. But as I stood there watching my daughter going to her first weeklong summer camp, I was pulled through a lot of emotions. Parenting, adult scout leadership, and perfect youthful scout memories. All of a sudden, I wanted to trade my Philmont trip for summer camp. I envy all of you going to camp this year. I will be thinking about you as I sip my coffee on the way to work. My memories will help my coffee have that fresh brewed summer camp taste as I reflect on those crisp cool mornings. There is that sliver of time between watching the sunrise over Troop 386 and when the SPL gets up to wake his troop. Its that precious time that seems to stop for a just a moment while God smiles on the troop.

Driving home this morning from delivering my daughter to her first experience of self-independence, I realized that watching the new SM take MY Troop to camp without me was just the beginning another phase in my life.

As one adult leader to another, you all are the best. You give so much and get back so little. You are Gods blessing to our sons. Thank you.

I love this Scouting Stuff.

Barry

HI MG

Dsteel beat me to the punch. As a parent you are obligated to protect your son, and I blieve the other scouts in your Troop.

In a similar situation, we had an adult who knew he had a bad temper. But he felt his actions toward scouts (physical and mental abuse) was not over the edge because the SM was the only adult confronting him. Since the Troop Committee appeared not supporting the SM, he thought they didnt feel his behavior to be dangerous or abusive and the SM was just over reacting. The problem with the CC was hoping the problem would go away because this adult was a very hard worker and he didnt want to loose him. The other committee members didnt want to offend either the SM or the other adult, so they just stayed out. After a few months and another close call, the SM called and emergency committee meeting and told them that he was reporting the adult to the CE because the committee failed to keep the scouts safe. Either the committee would support his actions or become part of the problem. One adult stood up and said he would talk with the adult and tell him the committee wanted him to step away from the scouts. I believe everyone wanted to do this all along but they needed someone to start momentum.

Once the committee as a whole confronted the adult, he voluntarily step back from personal contact with the scouts, but stayed in the program. He is very active Nationally and we are all friends now.

Part of your SMs problem could be that your committees timid reaction is sending a signal that allows him to feel is behavior is appropriate. And that is very dangerous.

It's not just your son who is in danger. This man cannot control himself and someone is going to get hurt.

Good luck.

Barry

Good Morning All

I enjoyed your post Red Feather, thanks. I have a few friends in Mic-O-Say and I wish we had it here.

Like your Troop, Eagle was never a focus for us. We push a fun boy run program using the eight methods for leadership development. Lately we seem to around average ten eagles a year in a program where the adults do not set the goals for the boys. It's not easy to build a program like that, you have to have an attitude about you because there are so many adults who are Eagle focused.

When ever someone in our District talks about their troop with a goal to make every scout Eagle, I ask them; if given the opportunity to have one boy for one hour in your troop, what would you want him to leave with for the rest of his life? He doesn't have time to be an Eagle, so what then? If every boy who comes to your troop changes just a bit to be a better man for his family and community, then isn't that a better success. If a Troop with the goal to make every scout an Eagle misses one, then that program has failed. In a program where only 2% of Scouts make Eagle, isn't it better to focus on an outcome that has more favorable odds.

I once watched a commissioner tell tiger aged parents they had to join scouts so they could get the Eagle for getting into better colleges. I wondered then, what are we doing here? The Eagle hangs above Troops like a dark spring cloud ready to burst.

We adults control the program of how a boy can grow to be a man and work to be an Eagle. The best and most fun Troops in our Council seem to the ones who build a program around the other 98% of the scouts.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

Hi all

Quality or Quantity is pretty much up to the unit leader. In most cases the adults control how the scout works toward Eagle. That is a given and it's been that way since the beginning of Boy Scouts. But what has changed is direction of National on our program. Until 20 or so years ago, scouting was about skills and leadership. Use to, scouts learned skills to be good leaders and those who wanted more (about 2% of the population) went on to get Eagle. I remember well when First Class rank was considered it's own honor because that was proof of maturity in the troop. Now it means the scout can join a regular patrol.

Look at the program now and you see encouragement by National to get the new scout to First Class in one year. While scouts still have to learn skills to get to rank, time is more important than expertise of individual skill. A scout controlling his own destiny is being taken out of the equation. Advancement is becoming more important than the skills required to get the ranks. Why the shift in First Class Scouts, because of numbers. The BSA says that scouts who get first class in one year are more likely to stay for several years. National says we have more Eagles because we retain more scouts. Maybe that's true, but let's hope that Eagle Scouts have the same respect in 20 years that they have now.

Barry

>>As long as National encourages and does not require, we will not look like a BSA training video. I'd like to have a fully-uniformed Troop, but without a BSA hammer, it's only wishful thinking.

>>"Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings.

Good morning All

A lot is always assumed and said from adults about scouts should wear the Uniform. Sometimes we can get a different perspective on things by asking the same questions from in a different way.

1. Uniform is one of Eight Methods that help us work toward the Three Aims of Scouting, Character, Fitness and Citizenship. What traits of Character, or Fitness, or Citizenship does the Uniform help us give the boys?

2. I'm not sure how many here have read it, but the Scout Handbook section on Uniform tells the scout what a Full Uniform should have and when to wear it. If the Scout Handbook is different from what we adults say, what should the scout do?

I hope these are fun questions.

Barry

I can't but help feel that everything happened the way it did for a purpose. I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

Hi Rooster

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. I worked differently with my SPL Rooster. First I will start by saying that out of the thousands of PLCs I've attended, I never saw one where the scouts discussed in some way hurting another scout. I'd be curious if someone on this forum has.

As for always being present at the meeting, well I worked in the "teach them, trust them, let them go" style. If you don't trust your scouts to perform in an expected manner, then you train them until you build that trust. Eventually most SPLs master running meetings. The rest of the of the Patrol Leaders Council master sitting through them. The next step of building confidence would be staying out of the meeting to see how they perform.

I feel if adults attend meetings to prevent problems, then they are probably not allowing a lot of growth because they are afraid of the results. I am not saying that adults should not attend scouting activities because we have to see them in action to understand where they are in their growth toward manhood. I am saying for a program to grow, the scouts have to be trusted, or trained so they can be trusted. If you are afraid scouts will plot against of other scouts, then your program needs run in such a way to train your scouts until you can trust them to not behave in that manner. My scouts have run many meetings without the SM attending. Sometimes things didnt go very well, but thats what we learned from the experience.

Comments?

Scouting Cheers

Barry

>>If you take the position that only a parent can know what information is important, aren't transcripts of all our conversations the logical conclusion? Otherwise aren't you making a judgement as to what you do and don't tell a parent?

>>MW, what if your disclosure resulted in the child receiving a severe beating from his father who tuned out to be a closet child abuser? You had no idea about the father, but the child knew, and thats why the child came to you.

>>Time out here folks

>>I would violate that confidence therefore not being trustworthy. And to me, my word is far more important that a rule.

Hi All

There is another part of this that needs to be looked at. The adult has to be seen as the person of wisdom. Wisdom being lifes experiences. I know from experience that boys will have a higher respect for that wisdom when they know its limits. One of the limits is no secrets from the parents. I don't even feel it's a "don't ask don't tell" type thing, it's a moral relationship. A policy of no secrets actually takes away barriers and opens up the SM and scout relationship. While many here think scouts will view this as the adult telling on the scout, I found the boys viewed the relationship as another valued resource for advice and guidance. It is the one part of Baden Powells description of a SM he describes as a big brother. A big brother would not hold important information from the parents. The wise SM would not hold back a secret from parents that he views harmful to the son because that would violate the relationship of the family. Scouts won't run from this, they are attracted to it because they can count on it and it is noble.

Now for the liability side, I just watched a close friend have to defend himself from a parent who wanted to know why she was not informed about her sons bad behavior on a campout. The friend knew better but wanted the trust of the boy. However, he lost the trust of the parent.

Sure things come up that is hard for the parent/child relationship, but that is not for us to judge. The police and DHS have called me about scouts in my troop, but even that has its protocols. Also, I always conferred with other trusted adults on most boy matters because sometimes my guidance could be wrong and I wanted another opinion.

Barry

>> Cooking on stoves is here to stay, but knowing how to build a fire and cook on it is pretty important and not as basic as it may seem.

>>Needless to say our troop of soon to be Tenderfoot scouts beat these "older Scouts" hands down.

Hi David

Lots of great ideas. Eagle74 gave you a great start. I will point out the first one, even the second annual planning are the hardest because it's. It can be hard for the SPL to maintain control when he doesn't exactly know what to expect, so keep the expectations of this one very simple.

1.You may not see it this first time, but as you grow you will see that goals are the rails that keep good program and track. Bob gave good advice to start with goals. I would suggest for this first time, have your PLC set only a few goals so that you guys dont get lost in the details of what your doing, maybe as few as two the first time. I also suggest that you and your SM walk in the room with a few goals in mind already so you can start the discussion with some examples

2. Just like Eagle74 suggested, break your meeting into small controllable blocks. Our PLC started with about 30 minutes devoted to setting troop goals. Then the SPL ask for ideas for the Monthly theme, then the Campout Themes, and after that campout locations. Some troops combine Monthly Themes and Campout themes together which is fine. But the point for you is break up your meeting so that you can control subjects. Or else everyone gets distracted with to many ideas and starts talking.

3. Our Troop also allows everyone to give ideas, but you will loose the meeting quickly is you dont hold some kind of order. One idea is allow only patrol leaders to give the ideas for the patrol. The adults are considered a patrol in here and while all adults can give ideas, only one can speak for that patrol. Set a maximum number ideas for each patrol. For example, during the Monthly them section, each patrol can give five ideas. You go around the room ask each patrol for one idea, then go around again until youve done it five times. Do the same for Campout Themes and again for locations. This allows you to control the flow of ideas to one person at a time. This also allows the adults to give ideas they feel is needed for the program.

Then allow the scouts to vote on the ideas. Our patrols are allow five votes on each subject. We take a break let the scouts discuss among themselves likes and dislikes of ideas then the patrol leader put a mark next to the idea his patrol likes. In our troop, each patrol is allowed five votes for each block. I dont where the number came from and you can certainly add more.

Allow SHORT breaks so the scouts can talk about the ideas and to stay fresh. Our experience is four hours is about the max for staying on topic, even with short breaks. After that, everyone starts to just say whatever they feel just to finish the meeting. A lunch break is a great idea. I also like the idea of using the SPL Handbook to plan the meeting is an excellent idea.

Finally, I found that a meeting with the SM, SPL and ASPL the day before made it easier for us all to understand the goals. I would suggest that the ASPL be the guy trying to pull ideas from the quiet scouts, and also the controller of scouts who want to dominate the meeting. This allows the SPL to keep focus on the subjects and keeping the flow of the meeting going. The SPL from the very beginning has to show control. If not, the meeting gets long real quickly. Don't be afraid to put your sign up to get attention back to you and the subject. There are a lot of great ideas here, many come from PLCs with a lot of experience. You are new, so keep it simple, learn from thisexperience and then change to improve the next one. Our First Annual Planning went to 4:00 AM. About ten hours. Now our guys do in about three, and they get a lot more done. It takes practice.

Good luck

Barry

My SM had a way of getting me set higher goals. I liked myself when I was around him.

When I got my job at the FAA in 1995, my building was across the street from him. But when I looked him up, he had passed away six months before.

Barry