Eagledad

Hi All

>>Two deep leadership is required at all Troop activities

>>Did someone say "Niagra Falls"? Slowly I turn...

>>"Good leaders must first be good followers" (or some variation of the quote). What does this quote mean to you? Do you agree with it? How does it apply to scouting?> What does this quote mean to you?>? Do you agree with it?>? How does it apply to scouting?

Hi Proud Eagle

BW give a good solution or even just leaving all the older scout together would probably work as well. The youth leadership will come from the older patrol, so at least two or three of them will always be busy with Troop administration and managment. In our troop, those guys are so busy, they don't have time for cooking or normal patrol duties, so the rest of the patrol supports them. It works great for us.

As for the new older scout, you will have to get a feel for why he joined your troop, but I found that if he has gone through puberty, he will never be happy with the new scouts. If that is the case, than the SM and SPL will have to work with him to help him catch up and grow. He can still attend the same classes as the new guys, but will probably be happier being a member with the older guys.

My experience with these scouts is they feel kind of the old ball and can burn out quickly if they don't ever feel as part of the gang. What keeps them in is getting positions of responsibilty that make them feel adult, and exceptance from the patrol. It will work, but the adults need to understand the challenge.

This scout is kind of important in that he will be the oldest scout in the troop in the not to long future. He will have a lot of responsibility thrust on him even if he doesn't want it. Some do OK with it, I find most have a hard time with it. I find that adults naturally will push these guys in advancement which is OK, but what they really need is a lot of experience in leadership. Most of habits and skill of leadership scouts use as they become the troop leaders where learned in the first two or three years. So your scout has a lot of catching up. It will work OK if you know that and guide him where he struggles.

Good Luck, everyone will learn a lot from these situation.

Barry

>>The question for debate should not be NSP or mixed. The question is "Do you follow the Scouting program or not?

>>The BSA does reccommend, insist, really leans on you to have a program that would allow a scout to become a first class scout in a year. There is a huge difference between making sure the boys attain first class and having a program that enables the scout to become first class, if the scout shows up at meetings, activities, shows scout spirit, etc.

>>Eagledad

Are you saying that some troops needs NSP and some do not? How could that be?

I truly respect what you have to say, but I wonder what your motivation was for that last post.>You and Bob White say almost the same thing most of the time, but you 2 seem to rub each other the wrong way. I sit and read what you and BW say and think they are saying the same thing in a different way. >A open mind is a learning mind.

Hi All

>>I was just looking for someone with, possibly, a similar experience and, perhaps, some suggestions as what to do next.

>>You see separate patrols as high maintenance. Can establishing and developing the character of a random ever-changing group of youth ever be low maintenance?

>>I am an ASM right now and I would like to see our troop have a new scout patrol and a venture patrol. I think that the scouts would be in favor of both but I fear that many of the adults would reject the idea.

AOL

Life

Current Assistance Scoutmaster

Current Council JLT Chair

Barry

>>The patrol, as I've always said, is the "leadership laboratory" of the BSA. It's the alpha and omega of BSA leadership teaching.

>>No one bothered us, policed us, or otherwise stopped us from camping.

Good Day all

>>Usually, you pros are next to impossible to contact. The current and previous two DEs were notorious for not answering phone calls or emails.

>>I think the SM in this case handled this situation well. Signing off on this requirement at this time would be a great disservice to the Scout and could set a dangerous percedent in the Troop.

>>By the way, as SM, I have delegated the SM conference for every rank (so far up to 1st Class) for one boy in our troop, my son. I do not need to get to know him better plus he and I have many "at home" pseudo SM conferences.

Hi Steve

Boy, there is a lot that can be discussed on this subject, but let me start with a few things off the top of my head and I am confident others will join in.

The SMs job is helping the scout grow in character, fitness and citizenship. The other stuff like skills, leadership and ideals are the tools or methods for the SM to induce the growth.

So a scoutmaster confrences (SC) is really a check on the scout toward his growth. Not a check on can he tie the knots. Its more of finding out if he learned how to tie the knots, does he know where to go in the book to relearn the knots if he forgot them. Even, did he learn how to set a goal to learn more knots. The SC is not a time to check his skills, its a chance to check is growth.

Now for those troublesome scouts, a lot of SMs think they only need to do one SC for each scout at each rank advancement. That is where the problem starts. If our job is growth, then we need to talk with the scout enough to watch the growth, and guide him in his performance. It's not really fair to watch the lazy scout who doesn't really appear to live the scout law, but not do anything about until he is ready for his BOR. Mentoring or guiding a scout is a constant process of working with the boy as he performs. You will know if the SM is doing his job if the scout is surprised by anything said in the conference. The SC before the BOR should basically be a review of past performances, conversations and conferences. The scout actually be able to tell the SM where he has improved and grown.

Also, the SM should never measure a scout to himself or anyone else in growth. Trust me, I know how frustrating it can be to watch a boy just get by. But the real question is did he grow? Did he make any attempts to better himself through the discussions and conferences with the SM or other mentors? Some scouts will never achieve the ideals you have in mind for a scout. But the small gains you perceive in his performance may be huge leaps to him and his family. Imagine what you do the confidence of a scout who felt he made huge gains in his growth, but the SM said he wasnt a good enough scout yet. Know the scout and his personal abilities. Measure is personal growth.

So my suggestions are frequent conferences to measure the performance gains in the scouts, and individual expectations so that each scout is measured against himself. As I said, if some of the comments given by the SM during the conference comes as a surprise to the scout, then the SM or other mentors probably were not working close enough with the scout. If you guide the scout well all during his scouting experience, he will know when he is ready for a BOR.

By the way, I never prevented a scout from asking for a BOR even when I felt he wasn't ready after my SC. I advised him why I felt he wasn't ready and suggested he set some goals to improve, but I allowed him to make the decision.

Barry

Hi Shell

>>I don't want to take away his job but I need to do mine as well, how you do share it? Make sense?

>>Policies are the rules of the program. For instance it used to be a policy that women could not serve as Scoutmasters. That has changed.

Methods are the way we reach the aims. Competition used to be a method of scouting, it no longer is, so yes the methods have changed.

>>The "methods" (meaning the content of the methods, not their identity) and the "policies" of the BSA have been changed many times and it is still the Boy Scouts.

>>Was the difference between this stage and the stage that worked the training in leadership and program?

Darn it Dan, how can I show off my superior scout savvy if you keep writing so fast. Time for me to find another forum.

I can't add anything Charity, but I think you have a pretty good SM there. Patience is a golden quality that is hard to find in leaders. I said before that boy run is the willingness of adults to grow past their fears by training the scouts. But even after the training, letting the scouts step past your fear can still be bit of a leap. It's very easy to be a leader by the book when your experiences are also by the book. But that monstrous grey area of the unexpected requires courage. It's that courage that separates Scout leaders from Master Scouters. I agree with Mark, both your son and the SM are learning from this.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

Great Letter, very genuine. Ive felt all along that this forum was intended to help every adult reach the level of satisfaction of scouting that you just described. I feel the same warm passion when I read MK9750s letters. And its that same kind of experience that has me saying, I love this Scouting Stuff".

Wonderful letter.

Barry

>>The other position is that the adults are there to watch the scouts, superverise their activities, at all times, to make sure nothing inappropriate is occuring.

Wow, leave for a few days and....

Here is what I have observed and learned. Scouts between the ages of 10 and 13 didn't really join the Troop to be leaders. Oh at first it looks cool, but after the fun has warn off, they would much rather be hanging out with the gang any playing games.

I have learned that while 10 the 13 age scouts arent into being leaders, this is the age where they learn most of the leadership skills they use later in their life, at least between the age 14 and 18. So while I personally am in not hurry to give them a lot of leadership responsibility, I trying to ensure they are developing leadership skills by making sure the program is using the eight methods, especially in learning their scout skills and getting some responsibilities in their patrol and surrounded by lots of leadership role models. Anymore than that, and they kind are pretty much dependent on what the boys want. Most want to hang with the other guys and be boys.

Now what I teach for adults in troops that have aged based patrols or brand new troops with just 11 year olds is this. Learn and understand the aims and methods. Study the Patrol Leaders Handbook and the SPL Handbook. I also recommend the SM Handbook. But look at the kind of program you want your scouts to have at the age of 14. Now start building habits and activities as if you have 15 year olds in the Troop. Example for our Troop has a 30-minute PLC meeting before the Troop meeting. One and a half hour Troop meeting than a 5-minute post PLC meeting. Most new SMs with 11 year-olds don't spend much time on the PLC meetings and even cut corners on the troop meetings until they feel the Scouts are old enough for those activities. But the problem is its kind of like the shock of jumping in ice water. Just as important, the adults learn a lot about the troop program by doing these mature activities even with 11 year olds. Now I'm sure you're wondering how you get 11 year olds to run the Troop meeting designed for 15 year olds. What I explain is the adults have to let the scouts run the program, but the adult fill in where the scouts maturity and experience are lacking. As the scout gains experience week by week, the adults step back step by step. Example, during the first couple of meetings with the new troop, the scoutmaster calls the PLC together after the meeting for the post PLC meeting. He asks the scouts how the meeting went. Did the scouts have fun? Did the Patrol corners go well? How can we improve or fix the problems. How can it be more fun? Those kinds of questions. But then next time the SM helps the new SPL write down these questions and lets him ask them. Likely the SM still needs to encourage the meeting a couple of times, but within a couple of months, the meeting is basically running like a 15 year old would run it.

Now it's important not to have the expectations on this 11 year old that you would expect from a 15 year old. I can tell you 95% of scouts around this age are basically mimicking what they see others doing. They don't do a lot of rationalizing just yet. But when the time comes that they want to take that horse by the reins, the program is there ready for them.

What is important for you dealing with 11 year olds in high responsible positions is allow the position to challenge them without overwhelming them. The adult or older scout, if your lucky to have one, should fill in where the scout lacks in maturity. But, the mentors has to step back as the boy grow.

Most new troops with only 11 year olds find that their troop is running basically boy run just in a few with the adults almost totally hands off. There will still be challenges until the scouts reach puberty, But when they reach that age, the adults have to really watch out because the program really takes off fast. I have watched the boys basically leave the adults in the dust because they have so much confidence that they just start taking care of all the details. That is fun for the adults, but the scouts get frustrated from the adults holding back. But if the adults see it, they work hard to get out of the way.

So for your 11-year-old patrol, I would first do a couple of patrol corners and then explain the structure of the meeting and why it helps them work as a team. Then I would help the PL write an agenda, at this age a cheat sheet, to help him with the meeting. Watch one or two meetings to guide him and also guide the other scouts on follow ship. At no time am I telling them what to do, but more the whys based on the Scout Law and Oath. Eventually they find I'm not showing up to meetings anymore. The SM taught, now he is doing the trusting and letting go. After a little experience, the adults can measure the patrol performing going to a meeting. At this age, you want to get them to develop habits that allow them to function and move on to the next struggles. Once the stone starts rolling, it will not stop.

This is how we do it in Oklahoma, at least in my troop. Most adults who try this comment that the scouts learn fast and build a lot of confidence and their growth goes really fast. Like I said, faster than the adults. So be ready.

Does this approach your question.

Barry