Eagledad

>>I'm amazed how people assert things such as "Same age patrols tend to have an environment of slower scout growth..." or "Mixed age patrols should encourage the patrols to recruit new scouts every year to keep ages balanced".

The culture of a troop with Mixed age patrols should encourage the patrols to recruit new scouts every year to keep ages balanced. Even scouts who start new patrols should recruit a balance of ages. Keep in mind that mature patrols can only take 2 new scouts without risking the group dynamics. Same age patrols tend to have an environment of slower scout growth because there is less older scout role models, but the one time New Scout Patrols are recommended is when the new group of scouts out numbers the 2 per patrol maximum. Temperary NSPs in that situation give the new scouts about six months to get use to the troop routines before switching into existing mixed age patrols. The PLC should be responsible for healthy patrol dynamics. But the SM shouldn't be afraid to advise until the PLC has the maturity to understand and carry that responsibility. It's also important to understand that the adults are learning and maturing as well. There goal is to put the adults out of business. Barry

Government taking our guns would not have stopped the the Sandy attack because guns will still be out there. If some mental case wants to take a large group of folks with him to eternal hell, he will find the weapon. Think reasonable folks. Just because someone here doesnt like the NRA doesn't mean they are right. Ignore your biases and come up with practical ideas. Even mental cases don't go where there is armed resistance. Barry

Oh for Pete sake, Oklahoma city has been armed off duty police this for several years in middle and high schools. I expect most large cities have. And what practicle realistic gun restriction could be proposed that would have prevented this tragedy? Folks are interested in pushing politics more than realistic solutions. Barry

Who?

>>But for scouters to carry these weapons on troop outings, is something I cannot respect at all - and I hope BSA doesn't either.

Here is an interesting Op piece on this subject. ""Only one public policy has ever been shown to reduce the death rate from such crimes: concealed-carry laws."" A lot of folks don't care for Ann because her factual articles are blunt in tides of emotion. Ann's facts are rarely wrong because she is one of the best facts researchers among media professionals, which is why she drives narcissist crazy. It is an interesting read. http://www.anncoulter.com/ Barry

>>So what would have happened in Aurora if say 20% of the folks in that movie theater were armed???

>>It would be useful for the rest of us if the gun enthusiasts could put forth a few convincing arguments as to why big guns and big ammo magazines etc have a useful purpose in our society.

Local option. Barry

>>Exclusion of homosexuals has nothing to do with trying to reduce pedophiles and everything to do with conservative Religious notions on sin, and the need to hold this sin as worse than any other sin.

Thank you for the kind words allangr. Insights are reflections of humbling experiences. I didnt mention the forth step of "performing because its not really important for this discussion. "Performing" is the most rewarding step for the adults because the scouts have taken true ownership of their program. You will know when the group has reached the performing step because the scouts actions are automatic and without a second thought or being asked. It will appear as if the scouts read each others minds. Adults cant make that step happen, it only occurs when the scouts have truly become a functional team. Yours isnt the first time Ive heard a scout say the rainy campout is their favorite. Rain is scary for young first time campers who havent yet experienced real survival in challenging conditions. But when they master that challenge, the young boy feels like a man who can conquer the world, and they brag about it to their friends next Monday at school. Now that you understand the true power of challenges, don't be surprised by the funny looks from the other adults as you smile when rain approaches. Barry

>>Once you get away from the San Francisco gay pride parade, they aren't about sex.>Let's face it, if you hope for your child to have kids someday they are going to have sex.

>> since teaching or discussing sexuality has noting to do with the scout craft or scout values (at least half the scouting community interprets as not everyone sees a moral sin in homosexuality.).

There are some good advice here, but one of the problems with young scouts is understanding they dont have the maturity for heavy responsibility. Instinctively they shy away from the lime light because it makes them feel vulnerable. They will feel this way at least until 13 years old. When I train new young troops, I encourage them to develop the program they want five years later. In this case that means elections. But I would reduce the elections to three months for about a year because all you are really trying to do is develop habits and traditions for a long term troop. More importantly is guiding the adults to fill in where the scouts lack the maturity to run a boy run program. The risk here is the adults dont step back as the scouts grow. The adults need to keep the program challenging without taking the fun out of it. What is going on in your troop is a red flag that that leadership is too hard to be fun. Maturity and growth come from wanting to overcome challenges. Usually it means the boys want to feel more adult, so they take on the more than they are used too to get that maturity. But its a hugh step from being a normal 12 year old to running a troop. The scouts need to grow in small steps. The adults are going to have to step in and fade out to encourage smaller steps of growth without actually taking over for the boys. Its fine line. The SPL should run the PLC meeting, but the SM should help the scout make a written agenda for him to follow before the meeting. Written agendas always make running meetings easier. After a couple meetings, the scout should have enough practice and understanding to make his own agenda with the SM only needing to check it before the meeting. The SM should always be ready to step in and help the scout when he gets stuck like running meetings, but the SM should always ask for permission to speak because that shows instant respect for the SPL position. I never put my sign up to get the scouts attention. I always asked the youth leader of the group to get the groups attention for me. The SM needs to step back quickly so as Not Take Over. And when I say step in, the adults need to allow the scout to feel enough struggle to sees the problem (like lacking skills to control the group) and feeling the motivation to seek help. Asking for help is a sign of maturity. If the scout instead shuts down, the adult either stepped in to early and took over leaving the scout behind, or too late when the scout feels too overwhelmed to continue. Keep the scout active with just enough motivation of success. But the adults are straddling a fine line of too much control. I teach adults to let the scouts go just a little too far so they learn the scouts limits and can work up to it. Not wanting anymore leadership went too far a long time ago. Adults need to learn and practice guiding scouts as much as scouts need to learn and practice being mature leaders. You must understand that adults are just as much students of learning to be good leaders as scouts are students of learning to be leaders. You have got some work to get the scouts confidence back for leadership. But right now the work is on the adults side to learn how to be better at the adult part of scouting. Its normal, we all go through it. But its a step you need to be proactive with. What will it take for a scout to want to lead? Wha tcan you do to make the steps of growth smaller? I look forward to your future post of success. Barry

>>Is it better to have an abortion, or to have another unwanted, unloved, starving child on the the planet.

In some states, an abortion is the only surgical procedure an under aged youth can have performed without a parents permission. Boys can't even get a cavity filled with a parents permission. Sadly it's not really about a woman's control over her body. . Barry

>>If he were alive today, would he rather boys who could benefit from the program be excluded or would he want them as scouts?

You are right in looking for team building exercises, but you can make just about anything a team building exercise. You might have heard about the team building model of forming, storming, norming and performing. The objective of a team building exercise is to force the group through the storming phase so that they are working on the norming. It might be that your adults misunderstand the storming phase of the team building because it doesnt appear friendly, courteous or kind. Or it could be the adults just dont like to watch the boys struggle. As a result they rescue the boys before they get to the norming phase. It also could be that the program is so well laid out that no storming occurs. It's a normal parent reaction. Being a good scout leader takes as much practice as it does for the boys to become good scouts. Back when our troop was very young, we decided to reward the patrols with banana splits. So we set down three grocery sacks of ice cream and other required mixes then we step back to let the scouts figure out how to get the ingredient laid out to prepare their treats in an orderly manner. It was challenging at first but eventually a natural leader steps up and starts to direct the process. There is some loud questioning going back and forth but the motivation for a banana split eventually forces the hungry scouts into a team to complete the task before the icecream melts. That was a very simple task that challenges and forces scouts to form and work as a team. I have found that the more intense the task, the faster the team forms and works through the team building exercise. On average I would say it takes a patrol about three months of challenging patrol tasks to start to become a team. But anyone who has attended High Adventure Crews sees it happen in three days. The difference is the intensity and stress of working together every day under stressful activities. The task forces the group to form and storm just to get relief of the norming phase. Backpacking 15 miles up a mountain creats a mighty big appetite. It requires a functional team to cook a meal that satisfies that pain. It works every time provided the adults dont interrupt the process, which happens more often than not. The fastest I've ever seen a team build through the four phases is indoor laser tag. It was amazing to watch, but groups are given only a few short minutes to organize into a functional team intended on beating the other team. Indoor laser tag is fast and intense and it forces the more natural leaders to step out and start setting members into position and a making a plan. Storming occurs quickly with members who arent on board with that plan. The games occur quickly and the success or failure of the plan and leader are exposed almost instantly. But you see my point, you need activities that force enough stress on the boys to proactively find a solution to prevent failure. The goal of the activity can be anything, but it should be worthy of working through the storming phase. It should be fun so the boys enjoy the results and dont mind storming again. It can be as simple as making banana splits or as intense as winning at laser tag. But a series of small team reqired activities can lead into the norming of a functional team. Just getting ready for a campout should have a series of team required acitivites. Can you think of a few? All that being said, maybe the first step is for the adults to recognize their part in all this. Are you rescuing the scouts too early? As I said, its a normal reaction. Are you building a program that challenges the groups. Pushing scouts to camp out of site and sound of the adults naturally puts them in many small situations that force the group into the storming phase. Its a little scary for the adults at first, but they will get use to it and learn how to deal with the results of good and bad choices. I get the feeling you are looking to do a Patrol Leadership course, and that is OK. But you dont have to. Look to mix up the next meeting. Set little fun challenges that forces the boys to work as a team like settingup tents to check for mold then putting them back in their bags all in 10 minutes. That was fun, do it again with blind folds to simulate setting up in a hard rain. Reward them with banana splits. The challenge isnt so much getting the boys to do team building. The challenge is the adults learning how to encourage a normal program of team building. The 100 yards type of program. We wish the best on this because we have been there. Barry

>>I'm a pretty liberal Christian. I tend to apply my beliefs to how I conduct myself, and don't apply that to other people. My religion and homosexuality don't conflict because I'm not using my beliefs as a benchmark for how they should live, only how I should.

>>But the boys are also putting in time.

The struggle with understanding the Bible and sin is God teaches a concept of a righteous attitude or character and sins are actions against that concept. So it can be difficult to understand how God is offended by killing because the body holds the blood of life, and yet orders the Israelites to kill everyone in the promise land because a righteous humanity could not survive under such an immoral culture. Still for those of us who take the Bible seriously, God is perfect and it behooves us to research and understand Him from whole of Bible, not just a few single verses. Barry

>>Culture, of any kind, is rarely a single person show.

>>Well, I've heard this argument before - the problem is that the roots of the word "murder" don't go as far back as the old language the Bible was originally written in so the correct translation is still more likely to be "Kill" and the attempts to re-translate it to "Murder" is an attempt to soften the commandment to allow for things such as war or the death penalty. Sorry, I'm not going to buy that argument - if you can re-translate passages of the bible to mean things that they didn't originally mean, or to make it fit your view of what scriptures say, then it makes the Bible nothing but a book of fairy tales.

>>Only a small fraction ever make it to Eagle and/or their 18th birthday. Even if they do, their scouting career is pretty much over. Why would they then subject their sons to such a process?