Eagledad

The key to efficient training is to give the scouts only what they need to grow to the next step. Just identify exactly what your scouts are not doing well and build the TLT around that. There are a 1000 ways to do training sessions and a campout is one of them. Actually a campout for the first time may work well because it is something new and different. Its your follow on TLTs that may require something different. But we found that if you train basically only what the scouts need to ease the burden of their responsibility, then you will have a successful TLT. Repetition is the killer of motivation. Also help the PLC feel special for giving their little extra for the program. Maybe give them treats that the other scouts don' t normally get. I brought a cooler of pop, chips and nuts on campouts for the PLC while they held their PLC meetings in the evening. Pizza delivered on a TLT campout? When I trained units in designing training courses, I ask the SM's to sit down with the SPL and write a list of specific problems that training could attack. A lot of leaders (most) just seem train some agenda they find on the Web without thought to if the activities were actually teaching their scouts anything. Prioritize the list and then simplify it to a few basic areas. Remember the basic rule is that young adults typically obsorb around 20 percent of everything you throw at them. The more items on the list you throw, they less specific skill they take home. Good luck, and have fun. TLT eventually became the olders scouts total responsibility that they took on with pride. Barry

Twocubdad, until we get this politico correctness thing figured out, a gentleman will insist the adult gay lesbians go first. But just for 19 seconds like everyone else. Barry

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Only one of four of my post make it in the discussion, so wish me luck. I'm glad to see folks glass have full that this will turn out to not be a big deal and will brush over quickly. However, history is different, No youth scouting program has recovered to the level of memebership and funding they had before accepting gay role models. Also, I think folks are burning out on the political corrections wars in general. Politics is in every part of our lives now and we are being bombarded by media and politicians on who to hate and who to like. Cultural wars are at the highest level ever in the US. People are tired of it and the real scouting discussions on this forum (or lack of) kind of supports that. I don't see how the BSA can make the switch to accepting gays in any form without changing youth protection policies. As much as folks say it's not about sex, it will quickly become about sex the first time a scout molest another scout. And don't say it wont happen, it has already happened many times, it just wasn't under the context of homosexuality. Then there is the logical perspective. Ever since the BSA has accepted women as leaders, the majority of new leaders have been adults without a youth scouting experience. I'm guessing no more than 25 percent of new adult leaders today where boy scouts as a youth. So I am asking you folks of wisdom, why would a parent who has nothing invested in scouting want to put up with the hassle of scouting? I think it was tough before, but now it has such a stigma to it that I'm wondering who needs it. Soccer is a lot easier. Maybe it was inevitable, but we are watching the decline of true scouting and whatever replaces the void will not be a values program and barely an outdoors program. It will take it a little while, but scouting is going to turn into a urban focused program like the YMCA and even the Girl scouts designed more as just a place for youth to gather without program intended to improve the individual. Pack gives a quote that for him is profound, "Religion was not intended to bring people together". Well scouting is the same. It is a values program intended to develop the individual just like religion. The self-serving actions of religion and scouting naturally bring people together because the motivation of individual are selfless. The YMCA was the exact same kind of program before it started getting away from its religious foundation and ideals. Now it's just a place for the youth to meet socially. It has no noble vision or mission for the youth that it serves. So I'm not a confident about the present program as many here, I think we adults are very self serving and ran scoutingt into the ground. National didn't bungle it up, we did. You don't have to read very many post to see the condesending tone and hatred of the discussions toward each other. Not scoutlike, but nobody seems to care. We want everything and were willing to tear each other down hoping we would be the one left standing after the smoke cleared. We gave up our dignity for the gold ring. We were, and many still are willing to give up our virtues hoping the new world order would favor our own way of thinking. NJ keeps saying "do the right thing". Takes a lot of pride to think our way IS the best way. Nowhere does the Scout oath or law demand that our way IS the only way. There can be no concensus of peace without humility. The actions in the Scout Oath and Law require humility to be effective. There is no humilty in demanding the right thing. That might come in the new Scouting program. As for me and my sons, we are the lucky ones. We experienced the true vision of scoutings. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I realize I am sometimes guilty of being the pot that calls the kettle 'black' but here I note that the 'tit-for-tat' approach to interactions tends to escalate things away from 'scoutlike' while the 'turn-the-other-cheek' tends to moderate things. I guess that also depends on what 'cheek' we're talking about, lol.<< Or 'tongue-in-cheek' for that matter. Without voice or facial expressions, sometimes tongue-n-cheek post can appear tit-for-tat even when that is the furthest thing from the poster's intent. Barry

This is one of the strangest things I've ever seen. I just tried to add a comment to something AZMike wrote and it ended up here in this post by Eagledad. If this just deleted something, I apologize. It was completely unintended. Eagledad, if you DID try to post something, please post it again. I have no idea what happened. Packsaddle

.>>So, what does a SM & ASM really even do? sit back and watch?..... answer questions if asked?.... take the boys to the hospital after an incident?....<< What would a new 21 year old unmarried Scoutmaster need from a 45 year old experienced Scoutmaster with three kids? Adults as well as experienced scouts are a resource of experience, wisdom and skills. Oh, and I guess drivers too. Of course adults in new young troops are a lot busier than the adults in mature older troops. But even adults need resources for growth. Barry

>>As he's rebuilding, any suggestions on how to keep the younger boys who he's grooming (excited, energetic) from turing into the older boys (unethusiastic) when they get to 14 or 15?<< Good question. The key to excited and energetic scouts of all ages is to challenge them both intellectually and physically at their maturity and experience. That is the short answer, but if it were that easy, we wouldn’t see such a drop off of scouts at age 14. Young scouts 12 and under don’t really enjoy responsibility like adults think. They like games and adventure and would much rather run around in the group than lead the group. A good program for 13 and under scouts is developing scout skills though fun adventure activities in the field. Scouts of all ages can handle some responsibility, but only enough to build confidence for larger responsibilities as they mature and gain experience. The challenge of a young troop is giving the young scouts enough leadership to run the troop without burning them out from the weight of responsibility. Very tricky. The problem for low experienced adult leaders is learning to judge just how much responsibility a scout should handle. The short answer is responsibility should stop when the fun stops. That’s why some of us say 11 year old SPL or PL’s terms may only need to be three months. Adults also need to learn not to be afraid of letting scouts go just a bit too far so that they find the scouts limits and pull back a little to keep the scout challenged. I remember one 13 year SPL who did great at summer camp for five days, adults couldn’t have done better. But he just nearly shut down from exhaustion on the end of the fifth day. He reached his limit and the fun was over. Learn your scouts limits. In young troops, Adults need to fill in for young scouts only just enough to keep the scout growth moving forward. The risk is the adults not stepping back enough and doing the scouts responsibility for them. Remember, let the scout find his limit. If the adults are doing their job correctly, they should pretty much be out of a job by the time the average age of the older scouts is 14. I measure overall program performance with scout growth. Not troop size or ages or ranks or even best uniform. My measure overall growth in character, leadership and serving others? That is how you maintain intellectual and mental challenge for all the ages. All scouts should be expected to serve the other scouts in the troop. The typical problem with adults in most troops is they don’t give the older scouts the true responsibility of all the scouts growth in character, citizenship and fitness. Older scouts should be running the whole program, not just babysitting the young scouts in skills classes. You will find that older scouts thrive on serving others and when they understand the overall goals, they are very good at creating and in managing it. That is not to say scouts do well when just throwing them to the lions without proper skills. Skills development is very important for confidence of taking the next challenge. But in general skills development should be something the scouts acquire in their fun activities and adventures. Get creative, don’t teach knots, instead think of a FUN challenging activity that forces scouts to learn knots like pioneering projects. Think of the skills scouts are forced to learn on a survival campout. I’ve gone long again. Sorry, but I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>> Regardless of what the thinking was in the 1910's, if the CURRENT basis for the religion requirement is that there can be no morality without God, it doesn't make any sense, because the BSA allows in members who do not believe that God is the source of all morality.<< Doesn't make any sense? NJ, the BSA trys to be more open minded and tolerant of other faiths, whatever they are, so as to be as inclusive as possible. Culture changes and the BSA tried to be as accepting as they can to allow as many families to participate in the scouting program as they can. Should we really expect postings from National stating opinions on the teachings of every new faith brought in and out as families join? It's hard enough just getting leaders trained. How many scouts do you know have been challenged because the BSA ideals started with God being the final authority on morality? I don't know how National would respond to your question now, I know whatwas tought to me as a scout and what is still traditional for most faiths including Judaism, or the Judaism my friends practice. Since this has somehow turned into such a discussion, I was reading a paper the other day by some expert saying that we are raising a generation of narcissistis (spelling) because we teach our kids today that they are the final authority on their behavior and morality. They are learning that if you don' t like the rules, do what you want because it's your morality. Something to that effect. I doubt you will find many teachers who would disagree with this author. Adults today seem to give youth boundaries that they make up as they go and change at the drop of a hat. The advantage of an untouched source is that we personally don't become the end all of moral behavior. We give credit or blame to an untouchable source and live with it. It never changes and the community as a whole is accepting of the same boundaries. Poor, rich, short, or tall, we follow the same expectations of society. There is a saying of trainers in the animal word, more training gives more freedom. That more guidelines we follow, the more freedom we have to living in a civil society. Now of course as the culture changes, some rules change, but on the whole if we work those changes within the ideals of an untouchable auhtority, than we know the boundaries and freedoms expected of everyone. And if we don't, we can expect a rebuke by society. A society of narcissist can't function as a whole of community because their is nobody to rebuke anybody when they cross the line. At some point the guy with the biggest stick will have to put their foot down to prevent stop the chaos, which means no freedom. So while you see individual morality as more freedom in our nation, I see it as giving the stronger having more power over the weak. Barry

>>I am working on having the scouts take over even more of the program. Unfortunately the current youth leadership, made up mostly of the oldest boys, is a bit unenthusiastic (bordering on having bad attitudes). Giving them the reins doesn’t mean they will take the reins.<< Good luck. My observation over the years working a lot of units is the older scouts don't change. What you have at age 14 or 15 is what you will have at age 17. Oh they will bend a little here and there, but my advice is apease the older scouts with the best scouting program you can offer and build your new program with the younger scouts. Young scouts are empty vessels eager to learn and willing to try anything once. It's just a slower going because they have so much to learn at their young age and can only take responsibilities small bites at a time. Take heart that your patience and hard work will be rewarded with an exciting program as the young scouts mature into self sufficient leaders and men of character. I've seen it happen over and over. If by chance you do find a formula to get the older scouts engaged, we are humbly excited to read your suggestions and take notes. I do love this scouting stuff. Barry Barry

>>do you think BSA started during the Industrial Revolution<< LOL Barry

Well said NJ, I don't think you change anything either of us said. I just can't understand how a person can believe God created the universe but isn't actively involved with man. That is the shortest way I know to say it. I admit that the bible is alive and active in my life, so your belief is a mystery. As for the other thing, you said the BSA was not founded with god as an untouchable source of morality. I simply pointed out that was because that was the normal accepted view of god during the time the BSA was created. A little history, the bible was the most common source for learning to read up into the Industrial Revolution because people couldn't afford a lot of books. So it's no mystery that the general population credited god with morals of the culture of the time. Of course the BSA has expanded it's list of acceptable gods, but that didn't change how the the oath and law are used to help scouts grow in character. Hope that helps clear things up. Barry

Giving the scout a job is a good idea. I had a scout once like yours and when I thought nothing would work, I asked him to build us a Troop Web site. It changed him completely and he eagled three years later. Barry

You will always have scouts who want to test the system, typically younger scouts. The growth part for the scouts is developing respect for the youth leaders. Adults interjecting does not help develop that respect. What you have to do is teach skills to control the situation. That usually works best after the youth leader had a frustrating experience. Our troop works kind of like jblake's in that we teach the leaders to quietly ask the scouts to stop their behavior. If the scout continues, they are then quietly asked to leave or visit the SPL or SM, depending on the situation. In this case, the SPL simply ask the Scout to be escorted out by the SM. The SM usually gives the scout the phone so he could call his parents and explain why they need to pick him up early. What you would typcially see in our troop meeting is the SPL ask the PL to take care of the problem and the PL ask once. If the scout continues, the PL ask the scout to leave. Once in a while a scout will make a scene while not leaving, that's when another patrol leader or older scout will help the PL escort the scout away from the group. The point was always dealing with the problem quietly and moving away from the group. You don't see the adults get involved unless requested. Our scouts got so used to this style of control that they automatically went looking for SPL or SM and confessing their behavior. The SM usually sent the scout back to the SPL and the SPL sent them back to the PL who would talk to them later. It worked pretty well. But developing your PLC and older scouts to respond as a team instead of watching one leader struggle usually squashes bad behavior pretty fast and quietly. Barry

My dad is a health insurance salesman and he is really struggling right now. He's very liberal and was excited for the new healthcare program, but now admits healthcare is more in a mess than ever and people are scared. But, he said, the biggest problem he is seeing is folks are just plain tired of talking about it. They just want the discussion to go away. That's what concerns me, folks are just plain tired of hearing about the BSA and leaving or not joining is the easiest way of staying out of the conversation. As I said before, other scouting organizations in North America took big hits when they changed their policy to accept gays, and athiest for that matter. However, I've been wondering if the BSA drama could help those programs now, or make it worse for everyone. Is youth scouting in general on it's way out leaving it to local sponsors to use as youth programs? Barry

>>You forgot "cheapskate Jews" and "lazy blacks" in your insulting stereotype.<< Athiest is an insulting stereotype? Barry

>>In MY example, the scout changes his god's mind the next day. << Impossible, God is unchangable. Man is flawed and changes her mind all the time. >>Other people can have gods whose minds get changed by humans, and you can't say otherwise.<< That's not god, that's the alter ego trying to beef up insecurities caused from being raised by angry atheist fathers. Scouting can help that kid. Barry

>>Yes, how is a made-up god an "untouchable source of moral direction" when the scout can just change his god's mind the next day?<< God's mind didn't change, the scout's understanding of god's wisdom changed from his daily experiences of life. That is why the BSA program is such a great experience. Barry

Now admitting? Hmmm. Merlyn, red is not blue, it will always be red. Barry

>>You still aren't getting it; I'm not addressing the BSA, I'm addressing YOUR rationalization for the BSA's exclusion of atheists, which can't be right because the BSA doesn't exclude other people for the same reasons -- only atheists.<< How is that different from my morning coffee analogy? Hey Merlyn, the BSA doesn't care whose god the scout uses, even if he make it up along the way. It's that simple. I can see how putting a omniscient rock obove an athiest could be degrading, but as I asked before, who is to say the rock doesn't speak? You need to make up something new for the BSA to look evil. Oh sorry, I mean, mean. >>Uh, nobody said "incapable". I'm capable of sticking peanuts up my nose,<< I'm sure you are, but that comment wasn't a reference to you the athiest, it was in reference to NJ who believes god created the universe and then packed out. Does that make NJ a diest? Barry

>>I think what he is saying is that believing in God (or a higher power, Supreme Being or whatever) does not necessarily mean that you believe that God prescribed moral laws for mankind.<< No NJ, what he is saying is the BSA is hypocritical to give God all the credit when some foks just make it up during their morning coffee and pass it off as god's. And I agree except that the BSA doesn’t pick any particular god. They leave that up to the scout. >>So if the BSA policy on religion was founded on the basis that you say it is, I don't belong in the BSA either. But it isn't.<< I’m surprised by the ignorance and pride of that statement because I assume you to be an educated man. I doubt even Merlyn agrees because it’s been the reality of American culture until recently and part of the BSA since the beginning. You probably also think it was a mere coincidence the BSA put God first on the list for who the scout promises his duty in the Scout Oath. I can only imagine your ignorance is from a lack of education on American Judeo/Christian history. That you don’t agree with the BSA is fine NJ, but to suggest the BSA didn’t do it on purpose is like saying red was never really red, it’s blue. Admittedly I don’t understand how someone can claim god was powerful enough to create the universe but is incapable of a relationship with man. Barry

It's not a "false" reason because whose to say the rock isn't omnipotent, certainly not the BSA. God is the perfect creator of all things and unchanging, so by default he is the final authority on morality. Atheist have no moral source leaving them to make it up as they go along. The BSA wants boys to learn to be followers of the oath and law, not creators. Without God, morality defaults to the guy with the biggest stick. Barry

Of course I have an answer, but as you can see, my computer is struggling with this new reply field.

>>Well no, you are missing my point entirely