Eagle92

Eng, You probably haven't heard about some of the Sea Scouts stories. Sea Scouts were used in WWII to help patrol the coasts. There is a photo of 2 Sea Scouts on a patrol boat in the Gulf of Mexico on the look out for German Subs, which were a real menace in teh early stages of US entry. Then there were the 3 Sea Scouts who rescued an air crew that crashed into the sea. Then there was a ship that did have mechanical problems and they solved the problem by themselves. Then there was the Ship that got a decommissioned USN ship on the catch that they had to do the repair work and sail her to their home port. They spent a month on their own fixing her up, and sailing her down form Maine to VA. Shall I go on? Eng I have the feeling that you really don't have the confidence in your step-son and other scouts.

Actually not only backwoods but any time you are 30 minutes away from a hospital. Now the form didn't originally explain it, the FAQs did, which I'm told may not amount to a hill of beans in court, but the FAQs state 30 minutes from a road. Some nice, easy trails in a state park will put you 30 minutes out, approx 2 miles doing the old Scout's Pace, so no CS hiking for you if you don't meet the H/W chart. Also as has been mentioned there are, to use a military term, PT MONGERS, who do not meet these charts, but have very low body fat. My brother-in-law every year had to get a "weight waiver" and do a more accurate BMI test, despite maxing out his PT test. He was a PT Monger who ran and did weights every day.

If you got upset because your wife didn't give you a lightsaber like she did your kids at Christmas, you might be a Star Wars geek. If your inlaws MAKE a custom lightsaber for you as a Christmas gift, you might be a Star Wars geek. (Ok I forgave my wife for not getting me a lightsaber as she knew what her family was up to ) If your best man starts using Star Wars quotes in his speech at teh wedding reception, you might be a Star Wars geek. If your friends and family are surprised that you didn't have a Star Wars themed groom's cake, you might be a Star Wars geek. (I had a Scouting theme one instead!) If you refuse to let your kids see the Prequal trilogy before the original trilogy, you might be a Star Wars geek.

Ok I reposted this from the spun thread. Please add to it if you want. I will be talking to my wife and about my pre Prequal Triology Star Wars Addiction. Hi I'm Eagle92 and and I'm a Star Wars Addict. If you leave you refuse to buy the Star Wars Special editions because HAN SHOT FIRST, you might be a Star Wars geek. If your family and friends refuse to play the original Star Wars Trivial Pursuit because even with a missing 5 turns handicap you still win, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you buy the cool Naboo rocket kit only for the R2D2 electronic launcher, you might be a Star Wars geek. ( Ok I also bought it b/c the kids wanted the Naboo fighter). If you begged your boss to keep the R2D2 drink cooler at your summer camp trading post, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you summer camp name is "Master Yoda," you might be a Star Wars geek. If you turned your "Cubs in Space" themed day camp into a STAR WARS day camp, you might be a Star Wars geek. ( ok 1 person didn't get the message and was a "red shirt,") If you know the words to Weird Al's " YODA," "Y.O.D.A," and "Star Wars cantina, and got your entire CSDC singing it, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you leave a rehearsal party as soon as you are done rehearsing in order to get in line to see Star Wars Episode 1: Phantom Menance on opening nite, you might be a Star Wars geek. (ok I admit that was a bit of a mistake, but it was opening nite and I didn'tknow how bad it was going to be). If you have an entire collection of Star Wars books, comic books, etc, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you use Star Wars quotes in your everyday speech, you might be a Star Wars geek.

If memory serves, AHA's course does basically the same thing as ARC. Sorry I only teach the Heartsaver FA with CPR and AED once per year. And since that course is not a "professional" course, we don't keep those books in my library. Plus with the updates coming out within the next month or so, I won't be getting a "current" book any time soon as we will be buying the 2011 ones as soon as they are out.

If you leave you refuse to buy the Star Wars Special editions because HAN SHOT FIRST, you might be a Star Wars geek. If your family and friends refuse to play the original Star Wars Trivial Pursuit because even with a missing 5 turns handicap you still win, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you buy the cool Naboo rocket kit only for the R2D2 electronic launcher, you might be a Star Wars geek. ( Ok I also bought it b/c the kids wanted the Naboo fighter). If you begged your boss to keep the R2D2 drink cooler at your summer camp trading post, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you summer camp name is "Master Yoda," you might be a Star Wars geek. If you turned your "Cubs in Space" themed day camp into a STAR WARS day camp, you might be a Star Wars geek. ( ok 1 person didn't get the message and was a "red shirt,") If you know the words to Weird Al's " YODA," "Y.O.D.A," and "Star Wars cantina, and got your entire CSDC singing it, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you leave a rehearsal party as soon as you are done rehearsing in order to get in line to see Star Wars Episode 1: Phantom Menance on opening nite, you might be a Star Wars geek. (ok I admit that was a bit of a mistake, but it was opening nite and I didn'tknow how bad it was going to be). If you have an entire collection of Star Wars books, comic books, etc, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you use Star Wars quotes in your everyday speech, you might be a Star Wars geek. Ok I wrote enough. I think I am spinning off now

Why does it work? 1) The boys EXPERIENCE it, not read about it or be lectured on it. There is something about living through something, whether it's working with your patrol on your Cooking Skill Award, or going with your patrol on a 64 mile canoeing expedition in the Candadian Wilderness, you gain knowledge, skills, and abilities (KSAs) DOING things. If you could learn everythgin from books, then why have internships, student teaching, and other hands-on programs in college. 2)The boys get peers that they look up to. As a Webelos, I thought my Den Chief could walk on water. In my second troop, I thought the PL was awesome b/c he looked out for me, or had another one of the "older scouts," try 12-14 y.o., look out for me and work with me. And as a new PL, the SPLs I worked under were true mentors, who when I was ASPL I would always ask what would Jim and Larry do? 3)Safe environment for failure. As others have said failure IS a great learning expereince. Scouting provides an environement where if you screw up, there are folks who will provide a safety net. Heck I am still making mistakes after all these years I was a CSDC program director, tried to extend the day to include dinner and a campfire the last day of day camp, and it was mixed results. 4) IT IS FUN. There is something about being with a bunch of your friends on your own.

Tried to post, was rejected, and when starting to retype, realized Gunny beat me to it. (bloody Devil Dogs ) Scouts who have actually LEARNED what we are teaching them, is the best defense here. Scouts are required to learn about Heat Stroke and Exhaustion at the 2nd Class level and for FA MB. While self diagnosing can be challening, having your patrol look out for you DOES WORK. I am living proof of that as I had hypothermia, my patrol members diagnosed it and treated me. So if the adults are liable, the youth, if they were not minors, would also be liable as they should have had the training if 2nd Class or higher. Don't underestimate the abilities of the youth. now in reference to classes, best FA class i ever took was as a 12y.o. 2nd Class Scout taking FA MB ast camp. Counselor was either an EMT to W-EMT, and put us through our paces in an outdoor setting rather than a classroom setting. We did brief hikes aroudn the health lodge, had scenarios laid out, and had to adapt and improvise using what was on us to treat. I teach AHA FA today, and think that that method: teaching in the outdoors and using your resources, is the best method for both scouts and leaders. I know that BSA worked with several agencies to create WFA courses, i would love to see elements of that incorporated into FA MB.

Leaders should definately have a say in it as they are workign directly with the youth. Parents should also have a say in that it is their child, their ultimate respinsibility. But has been noted, parents don't always know exactly what their son's level of experience is because they may not see it. Let's face it, lot of parents DO baby their kids. And kids to rise, or fall, to the level of performance expected. If a PL or SPL has high expectation of a Scout on a trip, usually they meet them. If a parent has low expectations of their son, they will meet them. I would also add that a scout needs to have input. part of growing up is knowing your own limitations. the scout needs to aheva role in this.

Eng, I'd suggest looking into the Sea Scout program for more info on Sailing's background. Sea Scouts, IMHO, is a heck of a lot tougher than Boy Scouts, has very defined leadership expereinces that cover planning and executing events for adavcancment, etc. The challenges getting Quartermaster, the Sea Scout equivelent of Eagle Scout, is one reason why there are maybe 25 QMS awarded nationally each year. Further if you read some of Sailing's previous posts, he does have the KSAs to do the job. If memory serves, he's a college student, and has either served on Jambo staff or raced in the Koch Cup this past year. Those two events don't allow incompetants An aside, he's also given me some great advice on trying to organize a Sea Scout/Venturing event for Sea Scouting's 100th next year. IMHO he has the KSAs. Please don't knock the youth. Don't assume that b/c someone is a youth, they are incapable of doing things. Unfortunately that is a VERY common problem that I've found in Scouting. We work with youth to teach them what to do and how to lead, and sign off on the stuff, but when they try to do what they are suppose to do, or if they become a young Scouter, they "don't know what they are doing."(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Eng, Is $150 how much sports are in your neck of the woods? I know that my dad-in-law pays $82/month ($984/ year) for 8 karate lessons per month. Tournaments, seminars, shows, and extra training to prepare for tournaments and shows are additional fees. It is quite expensive, and if my dad-in-law wasn't paying for it, my son would not be doing it. Lots of kids in my neck of the woods can't afford the $60 fee we charge as a pack and receive aid from the COR. There has to be a balance. As for safety, as others have posted there have been fatalities in youth sports. I wouldn't mind looking at current safety figures compared to sports as a whole, as well as other outdoor recreation organizations. I know that when I did research on this topic in the late 90s, BSA had a better safety record that other outdoor organizations in both per capital and/or overall incidents.

I'd contact Sea Base for clarification, and even then they may not know about the newer forms. I got an email of shock when I emailed my DE on this one, and looks of shock when I mentioned the newer forms at a day camp meeting. In the absence of contacting Sea Base, I'd fill out BOTH forms. Download the the Parts A-C, which is one link, then D, which is a separate link. UNLESS diving is concerned, then download the full 13 page document that includes A-d and the PADI healthform for diving.

Beav you said it (bold for emphasis) Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine b/c of treatment by other Scouters when I was an younger Scouter, maybe b/c of just the way my troop ran and gave us youth a lot of responsibilities and opportunities. BUT I HATE IT WHEN FOLKS EQUATE AGE WITH EXPERIENCE ( Meant for emphasis, but maybe an angry tone with it) I know of 14 year old Star Scouts who have more outdoor skills and knowledge than many CS leaders. Heck I know of 17 and 18 year old Life and Eagle Scouts that have more outdoor KSAs than some ASMs and SMs. I have met Venturers who I would love to help staff BALOO and IOLS. Age doesn't make one an expert: Knowledge, Skills, adn Abilities do! Ok rant over.

NJ, While some of the older, established troops kept the flame going in the 1970s, I know my old one was one of them, there were troops that didn't have the "outing in scouting." My brothers' troop was one of those new troops, and they didn't camp and they left. In talking to adults who have sons in the program now, one's troop didn't do much outdoor stuff, and another said boy scouts didn't camp as much as he did on his own.

As OGE stated, the SPL and PLs are elected by the youth, not appointed. SPL then selects the best folks to do the jobs he needs done. While it may be seen as favoritism, it may be that the SPL feels that the person chosen IS the best candidate for the job. The scout in question should probably talk to his PL, then SPL, then SM in that order to seek self improvement. However if there is a real problem a friendly cup of coffee may be in order.

In reference to folks at national getting into the field with units, I wouldn't limit it to just troops, I think is a great idea. While Mazzucca couldn't get away with it, maybe others could. I know when I worked for supply, my boss didn't have a clue as to why I wanted to do things a certain way at summer camp because they had never worked at a summer camp before. Some of our conversations, and heated discussions, were over the Operations Manual I wrote for the summer camp store and why they worked and the boss' ideas didn't. Very frustrating to be hired for a job 'because you have expereince working at summer camp," and then have every single proposal being questioned.Luckily the boss got a better idea of what we did at summer camp when the boss worked at jambo. Now in reference to Richard B. if memory serves, he is in the field serving as a unit leader. I have been having problems accessing the MYSCOUTING forums, so I can't access his profile over there, but I believe he is an active volunteer according to his profile. So he is serving in the trenches with the rest of us. As I stated previously, we have a new generation of leaders who either were never involved in Scouting as a youth, or were involved during the 1970s and have little to no expereince on how the program was meant to be. So what we are trained on is what we know. Let's face it, the Patrol method is not as emphasized as it should be in training. The concept of Patrols going out on their own without leaders is not as widely known as some believe. I have received 'deer in the headlight' looks about patrols going out on their own when I mention it to some of the "younger" leaders. Green Bar Bill may have saved Scouting, but even he was not able to completely fix the problems of the 1972 Scouting program. God help us all if it happens again because IMHO no one can possibly fill his shoes.

In reference to EDGE, I actually see it as a tool a PL would use to teach his new scouts. Why on earth would an adult tell a scout what to do, barring an emergency.

Richard, #1 THANK YOU FOR POSTING AND HELPING US IN THE FIELD! (and yes I am shouting at you because I greatly appreciate it). I know the tone on these boards can seem discouraging from national's perspective, but your posts hear and on MYSCOUTING are greatly appreciated. #2 In reference to patrol outing/activities, as someone else mentioned, in some parts of the country it is very possible for a patrol to meet at the PL's house, and hike or backpack to a camping location, even a council camp. I know in my area, there are 3 troops that are within 10 miles of a council camp. Now in reference to drivers, usually the patrol will meet a specific location, so each scout would get a ride form the older brother, parent, etc and be dropped off. It the location was local, so that if an emergency arose, contact was quickly made. That was my limited expereince on patrol outings. In reference to aquatics and other restricted activities, obviously those could not be done. Usually the patrol outing is to practice outdoor skills and work on advancement. Again in my limited expereince. #3 Someone mentioned Follow Me Boys, and to be honest that is how Scouting was originally intended. If you read any of Baden-Powell's scouting works, Boy Scouts not military scouting, and William Hillcourt's work, better known as Green Bar Bill, you will how the SM is suppose to train his initial group of scouts so that they can take over and do the work themselves. PLs should be able to have the KSAs to take a patrol out on their own without adult supervision. And up until recently, basically when you posted that national is now reconsidering patrol outings, Patrols could do this WITH THE APPROVAL OF THE PARENTS AND SCOUTMASTER (caps for emphasis). Again I had limited experience because when I was PL, the SM wouldn't approve my hike b/c I had all new scouts. While I had the KSAs, he was uncomfortable letting us hike on our own, and suggested maybe taking a dad with us (pre YP and 2 deep leadership days). Luckily the dad who went with us was an Eagle, and basically walked in the rear letting us do all the work. That expereince has helped me to this day as it was my first opportunity to plan and execute an event on my own. Since then I have worked on troop activities, district activities, and council activities. that one expereince as a youth made an impact. #4 the "300 feet" rule is in reference to TROOP camping (again caps for emphasis). It dates to BP wanting patrols in a troop to be at least 300 feet away from each other, and do not constitute 'patrol outings" The 300 Feet rule was taught at the old Wood Badge Course, Brownsea 22 Course, and Junior Leader Training Conferences. The purpose of this was to insure that each patrol operated independently of the others, but doing inter-patrol activities as scheduled by the PLC. #5 As some else mentioned for a good idea on how Scouting in the USA was before 1972, as well as how scouting is currently in other parts of the world, visit Kudu's website: http://www.inquiry.net/ Scouting was radically changed for the worse in the 1970s, as evidenced by sharp membership drops. Bill Hillcourt had to come out of retirement and write a new handbook, unfortunately his last, and create the Brownsea 22 Training Course to rectify the problem that the BSA was facing. And he still was not able to solve all of the problems. Hope this helps.

I think part of this debate on wearing knots or not (no pun intended) comes from several things. #1 If memory serves, WB required you to wear a "clean uniform" with no knots, oa flaps, por patches, etc. Just your council strip, 1, and patrol medallion. #2 I also beleive that at one time national did limit the # of knots you could wear, but don't quote me on that. With the exception of Sea Scouts, who are limited to 6, there is no restrictions. #3 WB21C recommends, stress recommends not mandates, that staff limit the number of knots to 9. #4 There seems to be some animosity towards "buying your knots," i.e. James E. West, NESA Lifetime Member Eagle, etc. While I intially was upset with some of these, I remember one guy donating $4K so that everyone in his family coudl get a knot, I've seen it used by groups of people chipping in to buy a fellowship for a beloved SM or other long time volunteer. Also it's a nice way to say thank you instead of giving them a Siver Beaver when there are tons of volunteers inthe field worthy of the SB. #4 I think some folks are upset that there are a bunch of CS leader knots, but only 2 Boy Scout leader knots, Sea Scout Leader Knots, and Venturing Leader knots: the Key and the Training Award. Whereas it's possible for someone to get the Cub Scouter, TCDL, CSDL, WDL, Pack trainer, and CM awards (am I missing any CS leader awards?) Anyway my $.02 worth.

Moose, The new form looks modular in that you can download only what you need, whether it's just parts A and B, parts A-C, Part D ( HA BASES to be read by the participant and physician) or, the mother of all medical forms: the 13 page comprehensive that has parts A-D PLUS the PADI medical form ( which is 4 part form link). http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/ahmr.aspx

My condolences go out to the family. I pray I never have to deal with this situation in any capacity ever. That said, there si alot of stuff on other forums about this lawsuit. Lots of questions are being asked that are legit and are not answered in this article. Info that is out there si also missing, i.e. he had a physical doen within the past 3 months, no autopsy was done, etc. Lots of questions. One thing mentioned in the article ticked me off: the death in the Grand Canyon. The news stated it is for expert hikers, well my question is Why can't a 15 yo with heavy backpacking training and experience be considered an expert? Heck I know I had adults listening with apt attention to my 13 y.o. den chief when he was talking about gear to bring on a camping trip becasue he had the KSAs and they didn't!

A few comments. 1) I guess Sea Scout Ships don't need to use these forms since they are not mentioned on them like other units, i.e. Pack, Troop/team, Crew, Contingent unit/crew 2)Well at least it says At least one person must be current in CPR/AED from any recognized agency to meet Safety Afloat and Climb On Safely guidelines. so that a youth with those certs meets the requirements. Some yutes may have jobs that require the CPR and FA certs. Heck I know that Lifeguards are required to have the professional grade certs in order to maintain their Lifeguard cert.

RS, Don't joke about getting a USN vessal. An SM I knew, who was a Quartermaster and got me interested in Sea Scouts back in the day, told me about one Long Cruise which was about a month long. The ship went to Maine I beleive to work on a decommissioned vessal and spent abotu 2-3 weeks workign on it to get her sea worthy. Then they sailed her from there to Norfolk, where is became the Ship's vessal. As for what type of vesal to use, it depends. I know of one Ship that had 2 man boats, I know of one that used kayaks, the aforementioned retired USN vessal, and of course my old ship used the leaders boats for sailing and racing.

1Time, 1) WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!!!! (and yes I am screaming at ya ) 2) I must respectfully disagree with this part of statement If he gives you a bad answer tell him why it's a bad answer, give him some guidance....t I would not tell him it's a bad idea, barring an emergency of course. I would ask him pointed questions that would make the youth realize on his own why it's a bad idea. Get the youth thinking, getting the scout reflect on past expereinces and his KSAs to figure out on his own what the problem with his solution is. THEN ask him some questions, possibly pointed, on what he can do to fix the problem. AND, if the youth cannot comprehend what the problems will be, as long as it is not life threatening, let him make the mistake and learn from it. Sometimes experience is the best teacher. BUT I like the tell him to get back to you when he's figured something better out. part!(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Does KUDU's site or THE DUMP have any of them?