Eagle92

2Cub, I hear. That's Why i say it's CRITICIAL, repeat CRITICAL (and yes it's shouting this go around), that the summer camp CD, PD, and BD have a shared, common vision of what they want to happen, with clear expectations given to the area directors, and to the staffers. If you have high expectations and demands of your staff, AND you take care of your staff to the best of your ability, they will perform. Sad to say I attended a camp with so-so camp facilities, but their staff was motivated, highly trained, and compensated for the facilities. Recruting staff should be a year round thing, starting the day after the camp is packed away. You need to look to take a look at your staff, see where everyone's strengths and weakness are, and recruit, recruit, recruit. I'll give you an example. My camp had a long term staffer, rose from the CIT ranks and worked in every area at the camp. Some areas he was great at, some areas ok at. He was a good PD, but an even better AD. So you got to start looking at those strengths and start matching them. Then you got to train the heck out of them. You got to give your staffers training on not only how to conduct the classes, i.e. lesson plans, behavior problems, etc, but also time to improve their skills. This is especially critical with the younger staff who may know it and can do it, but need to perfect it and be able to teach it. Again you got to have high expecations, and it come dfrom the top and works its way down.

I wouldn't knock all 16 to 21 yo camp staff. yes there can be problems, trust me with 6 years of boy scout summer camp expereince. I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. But I've seen some 16+ yos who go after the courses with a passion. Aquatics staff come to mind right off the bat, but I was a swimming instructor at 16, and a Lifeguarding instructor at 18, so I am a bit partial to the "aquarats." heck there are some "aquarats" under 18 I'd trust with my life over an adult lifeguard, especially when BSA did have the toughest lifeguard program. I've also met some first year camper staff who rally did a bang up job teaching their charges in the field. Grant you a lot of them were under the supervision of a grizzly, retired Leatherneck who served in 3 wars (WWII, Korea, and Vietnam) and was firm, but fair in teaching those basic scout skills. But even when he got sick and they had a replacement, and then when he finally passed on, his legacy remained and the first year camper staff are some of the best the camp has. EDITED forgot to add this Devil Dog served on staff for over 15 years, I actually beleive over 20 but not sure), and 95% of the Boy Scouts in the council knew him. At his funeral, it was standing room only, and former staffers flew in to attend. Lots of BSA uniforms at that service. But again I have seen problems. The key to summer camp MB mills in my opinion is the camp key three: business manager, program director, and camp director. The camp director has to have a vision, has to have standards for both the classes and the staff. I've worked with some truly good CDs. One had built up the staff and program over several years, and when we lost him it was a tremendous blow to the camp. One was in the process of rebuilding the camp program, and it was a challenge. But i also had a CD who only took the job so that he could get a bonus. Expectations were low, morale was low, and despite the awesome faculties at the camp due to the completion of a capital campaign, that summer was the worst experience. So you need a good CD. You also need a good program director. He's the one who has to not only come up with programs, but also has to motivate and mentor the staff, especially new ones. he too has to have high standards in conducting classes, and makes sure his directors, understand his vision and implement it. Again I worked with some good PDs, who were rebuilding program and staff, or keeping the high exceptions of years past, and I worked with one who, like his CD, was only there for a paycheck and would ratehr sleep and play board games than work. You also need a good Business Director. he's gotta make sure that you have the supplies needed to teach the classes. he's gotta make sure that supplies are being used wisely. he's gotaa make sure thate food is good and plenmtiful,the TP is fully stocked and ready to sell supplies, and the records are up to date at the end of the week. (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Ok this is based upon my observations and experiences as I have not attended any WB course, only the BA22 course back in the day. So please correct me if I am wrong in the following. I rather be told the correct info, politely of course, than contineu beleive the wrong stuff. 1) initially WB was rather hard to get into. If memory serves, the first courses were done a few times on the national level, and you had to get invited to them. As they moved to the regional level and more courses were required conducted, you still have to have tenure to get in. I do not know the tenure requirements for the CS WB trainer course, nor the short lived Exploring one, but the for SM had a 2 year tenure requirement as an SM or ASM if memory serves that, at least when I was first offered the chance, could only be waived if you were an 18-20yo scouter who aged out of the program. I was offered the chance at 19, 20, but had to turn it down due to family commitments, and again at Gilwell at 21 (chose the WSJ instead.) So getting into the course was challenging 2) As others have commented the bonding. let's face it two things will happen if you stay with folks 24 hours a day over a 7 or 8 day period in which you MUST work together as a team: you either gel together and become an awesome team, or you have a bunch of individuals who refuse to work with each other despite it being easier if you work as a team ( that was my BA22 patrol, and one of the patrols at the JLTC I staffed) 3) The ticket. It takes some time, and use to get you out of your comfort zone tso that you apply what you learned. At least what I was told. So you had to go meet people, use district and council resources, etc to work your ticket. Again this is hearsay on my part, but the current way of doign tickets do not challenge as much as the older format. Again hearsay form folks who have either did both courses or staffed the second course. 4) BP. BP created the first WB course. Some of the traditons and regalia are still there after 91 years.

Beav, You're right, no problems here with your questions, and in fact there were some that I debated with myself with. I cannot say how much time folks put into it prior to the class. I can tell a few folks did a lot of research learning a great deal, one had a very easy time getting it done (he was 1/2 Apache), and some probebly did spend a minimal amount of time. In reference history: at the MBU we had 2 classes: one with about 12-15 folks, one with about 25. The first class went really well as the kids did do their research, showing pics, describing things per the requirements, etc. Discussion went really well in my opinion. the second class was more difficult due to the time restraints. We got involved, but were not able to give each person as much time as the first one. In reference to the "mobile museum," That was a hard decision to make, and I admit I used the experience of summer camp to do it, just to a larger degree. Especially at the seminar as a reproduction of a Houma Village was created at a museum about 45-50 minutes away from the seminar site. We did promote that museum, as well as their annual powwow, and brought in pics if memory serves. The MBU was not really as close to any museum on Native Americans at the time. While a museum now exists, their collection of Native American is quite small, consisting of a few arrowheads, a few pieces of pottery, and posters printed with de Batz and le Moyne drawings from the late 17th and early 18th centuries with quotes from journals of the explorers and traders of the period. So I didn't have as much of a concern with the MBU as I did with the seminar, but I do see your point. With the songs it got interesting. We did teach the songs to the group and what they meant. When it came time to sing, we split them up into groups of 8 max, and they sang while the rest played the games at the MBU. At the seminar, we had a little more room so we also taught them to dance. Again the seminar was a fundraiser for the OA, and a recruitment tool to get folks excited about the OA and get them interested in dancing and singing when they joined the OA. We did get a few dancers out of the seminar. If memory serves we got some interest in the lodge's dance and singing teams out of the MBU. So I think it did help. One thing we did with the songs, which is a trick I learned by the guy who tried to teach me to sing, was we switched the lead singer for each verse. The instructor would start off the song, and when the verse was sung, he would point his stick, and that person became lead. Then he would pick the next one. until everyone had a chance to lead. Now I agree with you to a degree that MB classes should be a starting point and that they folks need to keep going afterwards. I see the entire MB process as an intro to a topic, giving you the basics and then giving you the resources via the MBC to continue the topic to the next level, IF you are interested. I'll give you an example. I got Pottery MB. I did it b/c I had some free time, and it looked interesting. It was cool, but pottery overall isn't my cup of tea. I did the minimum required, and did not pursue it afterwards. As you can guess Indian Lore really stuck with me, and I have pursued beyond the requirements since I dance, can sing a few songs, and at one time was trying to write a thesis on the Houma and Colonial and Early American Louisiana relations, until I was corrupted into doing 20th Century military history

Mixed emotions on MBUs. One one hand, sometimes you can get really great experts who can share their passion for the topic. And sometimes you get folks who pencil whip the Mbs. I think that there needs to be a clear expectation of what will be done at the event, and what will need to be done on their own, either prior to or after the class. i also think the class needs to be long enough to acually be meaningful. Now have done Indian Lore MB at a MB College and at a day long seminar that the OA did for a fundraiser. At the MBU, I had 3 hours to teach a session. In both cases I stated what we were going to do, and what needed to be done on their own if they wanted the MB. I am going to describe what I did. I said in the paperwork that they needed to do research on a tribe. Most of the scouts did that and had reports ready to turn in. They were surprised when I didn't collect them, but allowed them to discuss it with the class what they learned. I think everyone benefited from that as we had folks asking each other questions. That covered requirement 1 Now this next thing I did may not be kosher for some, but the SE was there and was impressed. Also the full blooded Apache who sat through my class b/c she wanted to know what was involved in teaching the MB was impressed and shocked to find out I'm not native. What I did was bring everything I owned related to Native Americans and had it on display. I also had everything the OA chapter had on display (one of the advantages of being the chapter adviser ) and my associate adviser brought everything he had for display. We took about 1.5 hours prior to class to turn the 2 rooms we had into a exhibit. We talked about items, history, meaning etc. we definitely had more than the 10 items, and that covered requirement 2d. Now for the all day seminar, we did have time to make three items: chokers, bandoleers, and rattles. We had the time to do that, and one purpose of the seminar was to grow our dance team. So why not help them make regalia. That covered 2b. At the MBU, some scouts brought in stuff, but everyone received a handout on how to make the above items, and a few others. Now we did play games, so they had to go back to their troops to teach a game. letter to the SM explained that the SM could sign off of that requirement when they did it. We also gave them info of several cookign methods. I did 4B, learn 2 songs and explain their meaning. everyone had a chance at the chapter's drum. At the Seminar, we also taught them a few dance steps and got them dancing as well. Again I think the key to having a good MBU is #1 the expectation that the MB will not be pencil-whipped, but will be earned, #2 if you don't do those items that cannot be done at the event before hand, then you will not get the MB, #3 you have to have true experts in the area. Be advised in some topics even the "experts" wont' know it all, and will say so. I know at the MBU, there were one or two questions that I did not know the details of and said so. I lucked out in that one question dealt with the Apaches, and the Apache sitting in jumped into the discussion.

YES! We planned a trip the weekend after Thanksgiving, We were going to Shiloh National Military Park to do one of the hikes there. Well somehow the idea of having families along came up and was allowed.We did have a few families show up, and one of them had 9 kids not involved in Boy Scouts; Cub Scouts, Girls Scouts, and not old enoughs yes, but only 1 Scout at the time. Anyway we drive the 7+ hours there and we get settled in the the church's gym we were using. Now the weather was cold and wet, but the scouts knew the drill as we watched the weather channel, made sure patrols knew what to expect, and were ready for the hike. BUT the moms were complaining that it was too cold and wet for anyone to go hiking as the siblings didn't have the proper gear for the event. Scouts however were prepared as we have camped in the weather before. So the decision was made to drive around the trails, get the answers to the questions in order to say we did the trail. Well the Scouts were ticked, but we drove 7+ hours to see the park and see what we had been learning up close so we decided to ride around, see the areas we learned about etc. Well the first car load goes to the first stopping point on the trail in the pouring rain, and get out. Siblings get soaked, scouts are warm and dry, but are dripping all over the car seats, and the car doors are drenched form the rain. parents decide to call it a day and drive us to the gym. Scouts are ticked off and vow never again to allow siblings. Then it gets worse. One of the younger siblings stops up the commode in the bathroom above us on the ground floor. Water starts going everywhere on the first floor, then starts dripping down into the basement gym where we were. We were furious. Church was furious. The ASM paid for the the damages, and we never went back. It was five, possibly six years before we did another family event. The family that caused the problem was still in the troop, but the kids were older so that helped. That was a water and boating activity, but the families were informed of BSA procedures in advance, there were 4 lifeguards present, one of whom was the SM, and we had no problems. My suggestion is the following. 1) make sure the parents know what to expect in advance, and that the scouts will do whatthey have planned. 2) ALL BSA rules will be followed by parents and siblings alike as this is a scouting event, do not be afraid to ask them to leave. 3) make sure the PLC wants this event.

Hopefully I won't get interupted again trying to respond. As I said my council has pretty much left each district somewhat autonomous in their operations with little to no coordination between districts. This is especially true of day camps from my observation that the long time day camp directors do like the autonomy and do not want to do things that may save money like coming up with 1 council wide design for t-shirts, one application form for all day camps, having some set crafts at all day camps so that we can order in bulk, etc. BUT on the benefits side, activities do go on despite whether a DE is there to help or not. My district has had challenges getting and keeping DEs as we are a rural district, and council for the most part. The long time volunteers know what to do and how to do events in the absence of a DE.

'83 Mixed emotions on your post. In my neck of the woods, there has been an attitude that "Cubs don't need to camp," and, to be nice, benign neglect of the Cub program. And I know that some Cub leaders have been looked down upon by others. SctDad can confirm that one. Luckily I have not encountered some of the negativity that other Cub leaders have faced, but I was also involved witht he OA and district training, so folks knew me. While I cannot wait for all of my sons to become Boy Scouts ( esp when all are 14+ and can work summer camp all summer ). While most folks think I will move along with them, I may stay behind in CS since there is a need for dedicated leaders at this time. But that is still several years away as youngest won't be a TC for another 3 years. BUT here is where I disagree, and it may be local on my part. The CS program needs more OUTING in Cub ScOUTING to paraphrase GBB But I see hope on the horizon. 1) We now have a CS outdoor committee. We are trying to put the Outing in Cub Scouting, to paraphrase GBB. We are trying to get more Cubs camping. AND THEY WANT TO CAMP! (caps for emphasis)When I did my survey of the cubs at DC last year, #1 complaint was they didn't cook any food. That is changing. #2 complaint came from tghe Webelos: they want an overniter. We are trying to get a troop or three to sponsor an overniter. 2)One goal of the committee is to work with the OA to expand the Where to Go Camping book to include CS approved sites. Good news is the OA VC of camp promos is bucking the attitude and want to include CS stuff in camp promos and the book. 3) We are making the council camps more cub freindly. We now have row boats, during the off season, at the only camp that Cubs can go boating at. 4) We are doing more council activities for Cubs. Both outdoor and indoor. We are trying to develope a program where during the colder months where parents usualy don't want to camp, they can do such things as skating, bowling, climbing, etc, Ok sorry for the rant.

Eng, No such thing as a stupid question EXCEPT for the one not asked? You do bring up a good point, if everyone is happy it will be harder to change. BUT what if the Scouts are not happy? What if the scout's do not know that they are suppose to be in charge, not their parents? That's part of scouting, allowing the youth to be on their own with their patrol, without the interference of parents. Trust me parents can be a major PITA at times for the youth. One of my troop's trips, one that we planned a year for, was ruined b/c we did allow families to join us, and the parents prevented the scouts from doing the trek b/c the younger siblings were not prepared to do it. So no one did the trek, the one that took a year of planning and over 7 hours one way to get to. It was about 5 years before we had another family trip b/c of that.

"61, #1 Congrats on the new job. #2 With the way the conditions sound, I think the SM is correct in postponing.

Actually one of the DEs in my PDL-1 class was retired USAF, had her license and DID fly around her district b/c it was so large. I know the reason why one of my DE's quit was b/c he was working 2 districts at the same time, one of which was 2 hours away form he lived and was 3 counties large. When he left, the DD that took over had 6 counties, and in 9 months that he had his new Prius, had over 100K miles! One thing we have doen inthe past is maek each district pretty autonomous in event planning. More later.

Fish, I actually had someone talk to me about a burial plot at a funeral.

Depends on the SE's philosophy. Mine was you don't go to any unit events UNLESS A) you are giving an FOS presetnation B) Political reasons, i.e. Council VP's nephew's pack. Idea behind that is that the DE doesn't have enough time to do everything, and you don't want to show favoritism. Grant you DE's do not get a lot of free time, so I can see some of that. But Eagle is a big deal. But I went to few unit events. Didn't got to OA events b/c "you don't need to play Indian." But other SEs have a different philosophy. And going to unit events are encouraged IF you got the time. Trust me I had little time .

Pack, I "owned" a 1963 Ford Fairlane that was purchased from the original owner. For whatever reason, the car was in my name, but I didn't have a license, so I only drove it a few times learning how to drive. That sucker was a tank. had to give it up as part of the child support settlement.

First car I drove was a 1982 Mustang GT T top that I sat in my brothers lap and steered 'cause I was 8y.o. First car I ever had was a 1979 Mustang. Mom paid $100 for it and it was a combined birthday/graduation present. That was a surprise as I was not expecting it. I had it about 8 months before it died. Adam Sandler wrote a song about it; didn't realize he use to own it But it got me to my jobs and classes for those 8 months. First car I ever bought was a 1981 Datsun 210. It got the job done and lasted 3 years. It probably would have lasted longer if the folks I asked to drive it while I was in the UK did so. Unfortunately 3 months with no driving killed it. It wasn't pretty, but the gas mileage was great (I remember when gas was $.98/gallon) and it got me to school, work and campouts.

MY BAD! Correct EMTALA, not HIPAA. I got HIPAA on the brain as I have to remind job shadowing students that they cannot take pictures while shadowing. You'd be surprise at what people try to do, even after reading and taking a test stating no video or audio recording permitted.

I would not give up on Webelos just yet, b/c trust me it can be difficult recruiting via word of mouth. It's definitely doable, but harder b/c yo don't get a regular infusion of new scouts. You may need to "adapt, improvise, and overcome," as my Leatherneck friends say. A couple of ideas. 1) While I personally do not like NSPs, that is an option, at least for while. I would not keep an NSP over a year, rather integrating them ASAP, probably after summer camp when they get a chance to know everyone in the troop. 2)Use Den Chiefs, and start recuiting ASMs and MCs from the WDLs ASAP. 3) Do more than just one activity and work with both the 4th and 5th grade Webelos. Some 4th grades, due to age, can join Scouts (i.e the Cub with the late b-day and must be held back) My ex-DC was like that. 4) Talk about the process on those campouts where you take the parents and tyalk up the program and how the youth do the work. I'd suggest the Cubs got to two meetings: one talkign about the trip and preparing them, then one after the trip and run as normal. That way the Cubs get prepared, and you get 2 chances to talk to the parents. 5) Something i thought about, but haven't used yet: Scenes from FOLLOW ME BOYS. I'd use scenes from the troop first hike with Lem leading as an example of what Webelos is like: adults preparing the cubs to become scouts. An alternate would be the scene by the lake where the canoe sinks. Then I'd use one of two scenes to show how scouting is suppose to be. My first choice would be the scene with Whitey rescuing the scout on the mountain. That may scare the heck out of folks, so an alternate would be the boys taking charge and building their scout hut. Actually just thinking about it the scout hutscene may be the better of the two. It shows the scouts taking initiative, and screwing up royally with the hut falling down. BUT it is a great learnign expereince for them and they get right back up to do it right. And that is what Scouting is supose to be: letting the Scouts grow on their own, making mistakes in a safe environment, and leanring. Goo dluck

Short, The reason for Regular COHs and BnGs is that those are the two functions that you will see ALL of the parents. You might not see all of the parents at a Pack meeting, and Usually only leaders at Scout meetings. Own reminded me of a incident that happened just before I became a DE in my district. A lcoal compnay gave $5000+ to a local troop to buy new canoes and gear (pfds, paddles, painters, etc). The council had just created the Pamlico Sea Base (www.pamlicoseabase.org Sorry had to do a shameless plug for an awesome program ) and was still getting gear for that, and could have used some more kayaks. My FD and I were tasked to talk to the company to get them to donate $ for the kayaks. CEO couldn't understand that he had donated to just one unit, and not the scouts in general as he thought the canoes would be used by all the scouts in the area. Needless to say we did nto get the donation. Unfortunately when the troop folded about 2-3 years later, their canoes remained stored on a trailer in their former leader's yard, and no one has used them since. Hopefully with the recreation of the unit, at least some scouts will be using a trailer full of canoes.

To quote the 9th Doctor (Christopher Eccleston), "RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!" The committee needs to be trained ASAP!. COR, CC and SM need to talk to the parent ASAP about how this is not scouting. While having parents involved can be a good thing, it brings additional resources, it can have it's disadvantages. Folks do not know how the unit is suppose to run, folks thinking it's Webelos III, ad nauseum. I hated it when a trip we planed for several months, took about 7 hours to get there, and the Scouts were prepared for the foul weather, were not allowed to do the hike we were suppose to do b/c of parents thinking it wasn't fair for the Scouts to do it, and their siblings, who were not prepared for the weather, couldn't. So everyone didn't do the hike. EDITED: forgot to add that this is an uphill battle. While it looks as if you have all of the scouts best interest in mind, if your son loses interest or is not happy, then do look for another unit. That's a hard decision to make I know, but your son's interest is the #1 thing you need to consider. (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

The problem I have with the H/W chart is that I have known folks who are "overweight" by the chart, but are not by more accurate BMI tests. I bet if I check around in the SE portion of my council, the HW chart is a problem for some of the Devil Dogs at Cherry Point and LeJeune. I have a feeling my friend just back from Afghanistan would not qualify under H/W guidelines, and I'm told the area is comparable to Philmont, except folks aren't shooting at ya. Another problem is SSN. The FAQ say Q. Why do I need to put my childs or my own social security number on the record? A. It is your choice as to whether you fill in this number; however, in many states, medical care cannot be rendered without it. THIS IS A VIOLATION OF HIPAA LAW (caps for emphasis) you show up in a Emergency Room, they have to treat ya. That is federal law. In refernce to the Talent Release section, while I admit I do not like it and think it should be separate form anything else, there have been many councils wanting it so it was included.

As a wise man once said "OUTING is 3/4s of ScOUTING" and later "ScOUTING is OUTING" and it amazes me when I hear of units that do not camp. So when the new JOURNEY TO EXCELLENCE program replaced teh Quallity Unit program, I was amazed at the camping requirements for the award as I thought it was too low for the Bronze Level. The JTE score sheet for Troops can be found here: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/mission/JTE_Troop_Requirements.pdf In reference to minimum campouts, to achieve Bronze status you must do at least 4 short term campout per year. That's Requirement 5. 8 campouts is required for Silver, and 10 is required for Gold. I too am surprised that the troop has lasted as long as they have without campouts. Heck I've lost a Cub Scout b/c he said we didn't camp as much as he wanted, and we had 4 campouts/overniters in 9 weeks ( and if he was a Webelos it would have been 4 activities in 9 weeks). Your son may want to look around for a new troop.

2Cub, I would be off Christmas, that's a mandatory holiday by National, but I would have to work the 24th and 26-31st if the goals were not met. And yes we did have a few DEs short prior the 23rd, but were able to meet goals on the 24th. When SCOUTNET first came out in 1998, only 2 or 3 people in each office had access to it. All paperwork had to be inputted by hand, so it was timeconsuming. The other problem we had back then was the connection to the database. The system was so slow that it took 2 weeks to print out lables for the council newsletter for every registered leader.

Well I admit, I've done FOS at BnG and regular Cohs. That's what we were told to do, both as a volunteer, and a pro. BUT asked in advance to do it, and got permission. Folks knew we were coming. rationale is that you do see everyone at one time for the family campaign. But if a nit says "no" you don't push it, and you definately don't ambush them at their event.

I'd stick with double stick tape. Or take a piece of regular tape, fold in half so that it's sticky on both sides, and Bob's your uncle it is done. I wouldn't use hot glue as it may damage the patch.

'732 Yes it does cheapen the rest of the Webelos Den's accomplishment because the Cub with Disabiities had to overcome both his disability and the WDL who did not work with him. IMHO it would not have been as big a deal if WDL did not interfere. So it's the WDL's own fault. BRAVO TO YOU, YOUR ACM, AND ESPECIALLY THE CUB! And yes that is shouting at ya! 2Cub, That question will probably get a variety of answers. I personally do not see the orignial situation as playing loose with the rules for several reasons 1) Webelos are suppose to visit and work with troops 2) He is registered with the pack and is working with a pack leader 3) He was done a grave disservice by the WDL.