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  • Ordeal labor used for service hours?

    I was talking to one of our scouts at the pool the other day and he is excited about earning Star. I inquired as to what he was doing for his service hours and he is planning on using the arduous labor at the Ordeal in the fall. Our new SM knows squat about OA so I was wondering if this is considered bad form or permissible?

  • #2
    I have a low vew as service hours being required at all, so I'd have no problem counting it, but ... Don't any of his buddies have an Eagle project (or girl friends, a gold award) happening between now and then? Encourage the boy to rack up hours sooner than that. You never know what virus will hit once school starts.

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    • #3
      KDD,

      The requirement is as follows:

      "While a First Class Scout, take part in service project(s) totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster."

      So, if the Scout gets approval from his Scoutmaster, it's all good.

      sst3rd

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      • #4
        I never let my boys count OA Ordeal hours for advancement because they were getting benefit (membership) from it. From where I sit the OA is something outside of the advancement chain once the membership requirements are met.

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        • #5
          I agree with DC, OA is outside of advancement. Plus in my lodge, the only way to be able to buy lodge flaps is to do 7 hours of service work. So it seems like "double dipping."

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          • #6
            I guess this boils down to the SM's opinion of "double dipping." Telling the boy those hours won't count for rank advancement may cause him to skip his ordeal! If he does than you probably just spared the brotherhood one more slacker. If he does the ordeal anyway, it's probably in he right spirit, so when he comes back with his lodge flap, let him know you've changed your mind and decided to count it.

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            • #7
              He is only 12 so I hope he doesn't have a girlfriend yet! No Eagle projects currently in the works but I am sure he can find something. I can certainly use him with the Pack or some CO events. Not my call, just thought I could advise the SM. The local food bank recently put a minimum age limit like 14 on volunteers so the boys have to do a bit more planning than they used to I hear.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by qwazse View Post
                I have a low vew as service hours being required at all,
                Wonder why you feel this particular requirement is poor? Or is it more that service should NOT be a requirement, but rather self directed?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by skeptic View Post
                  Wonder why you feel this particular requirement is poor? Or is it more that service should NOT be a requirement, but rather self directed?
                  It's more that I've had it up to my rolling eyeballs with every adult who announces "It counts for service hours." to boys who rack up hours left an right. I'd rather an SM have the discretion to call it under scout spirit, than have a boy watch the clock. So yeah, if he serves at camp on an O/A weekend or he cleans up at a local fireman's carnival and gets free sodas and a leftover plush toy as a result, I'd count it. I would just strongly encourage him and his patrol to look for opportunities every month or more frequently. The best service hours are the ones that don't count for anything.
                  Last edited by qwazse; 07-22-2014, 09:44 AM.

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                  • #10
                    It's considered bad form - the service component of the Ordeal is meant to provide time for reflection on what it means to be a member of the Order of the Arrow - it may not be clear when the work is being done but becomes clear at the evening ceremony.


                    Would you allow somone to use the same six hours of service work for 3 different requirements? I would hope not. The same principle applies here. I'd take the lad aside and ask him if he thinks that double dipping like that is a Scoutlike thing to do.

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                    • #11
                      I like this CPenn

                      Originally posted by CalicoPenn View Post
                      Would you allow someone to use the same six hours of service work for 3 different requirements? I would hope not. The same principle applies here. I'd take the lad aside and ask him if he thinks that double dipping like that is a Scout like thing to do.
                      I think the double and triple dipping is used far to often to get a 12 and 13 year old Eagle. It's something I disagree with strongly. Service is just that, SERVICE. The Boys are doing a task to serve, to understand giving back and participating in their community. As with anything else, the more they do it the more practice accomplished the more the lesson is integrated into the Boy's character. The more it's done the easier it it for them to continue. I've known a few Eagles that had the whole troops help executing their Eagle Project and after that you couldn't drag them to another outing to help with service hours much less help another with their EP. Very disappointing.

                      And if the Boy is standing around counting time then he isn't actually working and needs to get on with the service with a smile.

                      I do think clear and direct conversations with the Boys about the honesty of double dipping needs to happen BEFORE they have a chance to make assumptions about it themselves or feel sabotaged.

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                      • #12
                        I agree with everyone so far with a slight twist.

                        Agreement part ... Bad form, but permissible.

                        IMHO, the trouble is linking advancement and service. We do service because we are scouts and because it is the right thing to do. As such, if a scout wants to use Ordeal for advancement, it is none of my business and I really don't care for his specific advancement.

                        Like OA and servic with a smile, I really hope that every time a scout discusses service he's performed, I greet it with a smile and a nice comment like that's a great thing to do or that made a difference. I'd hope I'd ask questions about how it went and if there is anything that could be done better next time, but always keeping a positive that's great attitude.

                        But ... IMHO, I'd very much care about what it says about the troop. Why don't we have enough service such that it's not needed? Hour of service every camp out. Scouting for food. Eagle projects. Charter org service projects. Other ... there should be plenty of hours.

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                        • #13
                          The intent of service in our troop is to experience and develop the habit of serving others. We are trying to develop a natural state of mind. Our troop has a lot opportunities for service hours, so I never really cared what the scouts logged because I know they do more than reqired. Our PLC schedules a service project for every campout. At summer camp one year I watched a scout showing off a project to his younger brother that he had worked on several years before. Barry

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dcsimmons View Post
                            I never let my boys count OA Ordeal hours for advancement because they were getting benefit (membership) from it. From where I sit the OA is something outside of the advancement chain once the membership requirements are met.
                            I wish my soon to be ex Lodge Did that....Once you Earn the Flap by attending Ordeal..all you Have to do is Pay Yearly Membership Dues and your a Member until you don't pay anymore..and when you do decide you want to call yourself an OA Member again all you have to do is pay the present year's Dues
                            Last edited by jpstodwftexas; 07-23-2014, 03:38 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eagle92 View Post
                              I agree with DC, OA is outside of advancement. Plus in my lodge, the only way to be able to buy lodge flaps is to do 7 hours of service work. So it seems like "double dipping."
                              Anyone Can buy our Lodge's Flap..Current Members get a Discount.

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