getting away from ad hoc patrols

[Mafaking 10]

 

They way the old books are written it seems that all you had to do was give the scouts a patrol flag, and a place to camp and the patrol method magically happened. Now its seems to be one of the hardest parts of the program to develop. Its appears forced on the youths by the adults. The concept is foreign by today's practices.

 

Train: we train

Provide opportunities: We provide opportunities

Give them room to lead: OK we do that

 

Still, the patrol method is just not biting into the road.

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

To a large degree, that is true......at least in urban areas. I grew up in Oklahoma City and was in Cubs back in the mid 60's. Our Pack met at our school and all the members were from our school. We wore our uniforms on Den meeting day because we walked to one of our classmate's house where his mother was the Den Mother. Move that forward to Boy Scouts during the same time period and pretty much you wnet to school and/or church with the kids you grew up with in your neighborhood and they made up the boys in your Troop.

 

Fast forward to 2009 in Oklahoma City and it just isn't the same. Seeking out the "best" opportunities in schools, church, sports, scouting, etc. and driving 20 or 30 miles across town is the norm. Heck, when I was a kid it was a special treat to get a McDonald's burger once or twice a year. Now folks think nothing of driving 20 or 30 miles several times a week to eat dinner in a restaurant.

 

Those changes in society do indeed have a drastic effect on the patrol method. All that being said, my soon is in his 5th year in the troop. He has had plenty of time to get to know the boys in the troop and his patrol. Eventually, the buddies find each other and the pecking order gets established. It just isn't as easy or natural as it once was. The exception to that is smaller towns where everyone already knows each other. In that case, the more traditional way is still the norm.

[Eagledad 2777]

>>Train: we train

Provide opportunities: We provide opportunities

Give them room to lead: OK we do that

 

Still, the patrol method is just not biting into the road.

[BrentAllen 10]

Barry,

The time management and planning is an issue we are working on, with some success. On our last outing, I asked the PLs to come up with an agenda similar to the one you drew up for the next day. We talked about how far we wanted to canoe, and backed up from there. It took a little while, but they finally figured out everyone needed to be up at 7:00 AM, with breakfast completed and heading to the canoes by 8:15 if we were going to make our destination. They did a pretty good job of estimating where we would be for lunch, etc. Each day they got a little better, and quicker, at drawing up the plan. They also did a pretty good job of hitting the schedule, usually only 15 - 20 minutes late at the most. Now, if I can just get more than one boy per patrol to actually wear a watch... :-)

 

The patrols do compete frequently on skills-based competitions, and they love winning and hate losing. This is probably the single most important activity for building patrol spirit. And as you mentioned, it is the quickest way to get the new Scouts up to speed on the skills.

 

Mafaking, I don't know if it is that difficult to instill patrol method, or if the lessons have just been lost to time. I bust on Kudu from time to time, mainly because of his deragatory tone, but I will give him credit for turning me onto the 3rd edition of the SM HB. I have attended WB and staffed it twice, but I have learned much more about Patrol Method from reading these two volumes. Some of the material is a little dated (it's only 70 years old) but I find the techniques for working with the boys to be very effective.

Another interesting story about some of the classic (old) Scouting materials - I picked up a 1952 copy of Boy Scout Games recently. I showed it to my son and some of the other Scouts. I didn't think I was going to get it back. They love the games described in that book! Understand, my son is an XBox fanatic, so I was more than a little surprised to see their intense interest in this book. They have introduced some of these games to the Troop, and they are very popular.

 

I believe traditional Scouting still works very well, when given an honest chance.

[GernBlansten 10]

" I have attended WB and staffed it twice, but I have learned much more about Patrol Method from reading these two volumes. Some of the material is a little dated (it's only 70 years old) but I find the techniques for working with the boys to be very effective. "

 

That's an interesting confession there Brent. I haven't been to WB but our former SM did, and our current one just got his beads. They haven't been able to get the patrol method working in our unit. But we talk alot about it. All the SM training I've taken have very little about delivering the patrol method. We have never been able to achieve it.

 

I think Kudu has it right. BSA has moved away from it or at least doesn't emphasis it anymore. To get it, you need to go to the historical archives like you have.

[Stosh 3452]

I don't think the patrol method is as foreign to the boys as it is to the adults. If one were to leave the boys alone to do their own thing, they would naturally form up their "groupings" and do things without adult intervention. We do it as adults and if one looks closely at kids this age, one can see it happening there too. However, when we try as adults to program this, it falls flat and we don't know why. The gentleman with the schedule... "The time management and planning is an issue we are working on, with some success. On our last outing, I asked the PLs to come up with an agenda similar to the one you drew up for the next day. We talked about how far we wanted to canoe, and backed up from there. It took a little while, but they finally figured out everyone needed to be up at 7:00 AM, with breakfast completed and heading to the canoes by 8:15 if we were going to make our destination."

 

Obviously the adults are convincing themselves that they are having the kids lead when in fact they are setting the agenda and eventually the boys figure it out. This is following, not leading. As a kid on a Saturday, I was out the door bright and early with the "Be home for supper at 5:00!" ringing in my ears, I got my bike, rounded up all my buddies and we did things all day long, on our schedule, doing what we wanted to do. Fishing, camping, biking, building forts, swimming, etc. etc. We never had to plan out anything, but we all had a pretty good idea what was fun. Time management consisted of trying to figure out when 5:00 pm rolled around or it was going to be PBJ instead of supper at my house.

 

Why direct the boys into time management? Once they miss an activity or two and miss out on the fun, they'll figure it out on their own. They don't have to be taught that missing fun isn't a good idea. But if the SM is standing there with a stopwatch, nagging at the boys to get to the fun, all it does is make like miserable for everyone both boy and adult. Leave them alone, these are not dumb kids, they have a brain, they like fun, and eventually without any adult's telling them anything, they'll figure out where the fun is and how to get there on time.

 

I used to be up with my coffee made sitting around the campfire I've resurrected from the night before before any of my boys are up. Notice the word "used to be"? Well not any more. I let them sleep in a couple of times and when we ran out of daylight and the fun had hardly started, they figured it out that the earlier they get up, the more fun they can pack into the day.

 

When the cook is the last one up, I don't yell at them, the boys do it. When someone hasn't done their dishes, he has to wash them before the meal. No big deal, just has to wait for the water to get hot and then wash them. Well the water is the last thing on the stove after the meal is cooked. Once or twice and the boy figures out that cold meals of what's left over after the rest of the patrol has had their shot at it isn't very much fun. We don't have that problem any more.

 

Tents are a mess? I had one boy come to 4 patrol meetings without his shirt someone "stole" at winter camp. I suggested he start saving up for a new one. Well, he eventually dug to the bottom of his pack and voila! there was his uniform. Gee. What a surprise. The only comment he got from the SM was a "Nice shirt, is it new?" That was the end of that. He's had it on every meeting since.

 

Boys figure things out. They may have to stumble around a bit, but they are trainable. Leave them alone and let them figure it out. He has patrol buddies to help him, this is a very natural process that doesn't need adult intervention to make work.

 

BP called the patrols "gangs". Well let gang dynamics work. Obviously boys are figuring it out in the neighborhoods without adult intervention, the same works for Scouting.

 

Stosh

[Kudu 186]

Mafaking writes:

 

"They way the old books are written it seems that all you had to do was give the scouts a patrol flag, and a place to camp and the patrol method magically happened. Now its seems to be one of the hardest parts of the program to develop."

 

The problem is not ad hoc Patrols. The problem is ad hoc Patrol LEADERS.

 

We act as if replacing Patrol Leaders on a regular basis is normal.

 

Mafaking writes:

 

"Its appears forced on the youths by the adults. The concept is foreign by today's practices."

 

The old books do not force regular elections on Patrols. The idea was to find the Patrol's BEST leader and to stick with HIM. You will not find regular elections in the old books.

 

Mafaking writes:

 

"Train: we train"

 

That is not true. We did away with position-specific Patrol Leader Training in 1972.

 

THIS is position-specific Patrol Leader Training:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

Mafaking writes:

 

"Provide opportunities: We provide opportunities. Give them room to lead: OK we do that"

 

No we don't.

 

In the old books, "room to lead" was physical room. Patrol Leader Training taught Patrol Leaders how to run Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights (which were defined as extended Patrol Hikes) without adult supervision. Physical room is measured in distance. Given the "realities of today's society" (real or not) the easiest way to do that is to physically separate the Patrols 30 to 300 feet on monthly Troop campouts, with the actual distance from the adults determined by the competency of the Patrols.

 

When you separate the Patrols from each other, everything else follows.

 

This is NOT about keeping adults out of the way, it is about adding simple and inexpensive ADVENTURE to routine monthly Troop campouts. Yes, separate Patrol Campsites is "adventure," especially after dark!

 

Mafaking writes:

 

"Still, the patrol method is just not biting into the road."

 

We no longer teach the Patrol Method, we just use the words.

 

Get a copy of the Scoutmaster/ASM specific training course outline and take the time to actually read the Patrol Method session. See if you find any mention of the Patrol Method. The entire session insists that there is NO difference between a Patrol and a Troop, and it NEVER mentions a Patrol Leader.

 

BrentAllen writes:

 

"I bust on Kudu from time to time, mainly because of his derogatory tone, but I will give him credit for turning me onto the 3rd edition of the SM HB. I have attended WB and staffed it twice, but I have learned much more about Patrol Method from reading these two volumes."

 

I agree with Brent, the Patrol Method is not that hard. It is a boy's game. Once he sees an actual example of it, a good Patrol Leader will grasp the idea right away. You only need one good Patrol Leader at first. The other Patrols will get the idea from watching his Patrol and try to compete.

 

Take the time to read Green Bar Bill. His Scoutmaster handbooks were once the envy of the world.

 

You can find used copies of the third edition for less than $10 per volume at AddAll.

 

See:

 

http://tinyurl.com/5sjvz3

 

IMPORTANT: To find the correct edition, look for "Volume 1" or "Volume 2" in the description, starting on "page 2" of the above URL!

 

BrentAllen writes:

 

"I picked up a 1952 copy of Boy Scout Games recently. I showed it to my son and some of the other Scouts. I didn't think I was going to get it back. They love the games described in that book!"

 

Have they discovered Wide Games beyond "Manhunt" yet? Some of them are great for building anticipation of Patrol competition for the next campout.

 

In Troops where Scouts do not read try picking a few games in advance and at a PLC meeting explain how they work. Like adults, most Scouts do NOT read.

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by kudu)

[BrentAllen 10]

Jeff,

For someone with as much Scouting experience as you claim, it is amazing how clueless you can be.

 

What is the Scoutmaster's most important job, according to B-P? Training boy leaders to run their Troop. Train Scouts for a job, then let them do it.

 

Now, I can understand how someone whose training technique is sitting on their rearend would be confused by seeing actual training is process. But that is what you just saw - TRAINING the boys to lead their Troop, not sitting on my rearend waiting for them to figure it out.

 

Saturday morning, by time the boys got up, had breakfast and cleaned up, we hit the water around 11:00 AM. That meant we were only able to get to Billy's Island that day. So, that evening I pulled the PLs together and asked "where do you want to go tomorrow?" They wanted to go to Minnie's Lake, to the day-use platform for lunch. I asked them how long it would take us to get there, and they did the math, based on our canoeing pace on Saturday. From there, they backed up to how long it would take for breakfast and clean-up, and then back to reveille. The final part of the process is sharing that plan with everyone on the trip - boys and adults.

 

See, training is showing the boys how to do something they don't really know how to do.

 

So, for Monday, I asked the boys to let us (adults) know the plan so we could be ready to leave. They came up with a plan and said we needed to be packed and ready to leave by 9:30 AM. We adults were there by the canoes with our gear loaded at 9:30. The boys took a little longer breaking camp, and were ready by 9:50. They learned they need to be more efficient in breaking camp and delegating duties.

 

Train them, then let them do it. That is called leadership.

 

Kudu,

Having officer elections every six months is a good plan. It doesn't mean good PLs are tossed out of office. I have on PL who has been elected for 3 consecutive terms. The elections do give the boys the opportunity to change PLs if they want, and also let a leader who may be getting burned out take a break. If a boy has a sport season or something coming up that would prevent them from filling a POR, they can plan around that with the elections. I'll repeat - the elections do not mean the PL can't run again. If the boys in the patrol like what he is doing, they will re-elect him.

[BrentAllen 10]

Kudu writes: "The old books do not force regular elections on Patrols. The idea was to find the Patrol's BEST leader and to stick with HIM. You will not find regular elections in the old books."

 

Sorry, my friend, but you do find regular elections in the old books.

 

3rd Edition, SMHB, pg. 187

TERM OF OFFICE

As a general rule, a Patrol Leader may be kept in office as long as he gets results. Nevertheless, it is advisable to make public to the Troop the fact that the term of office is for a predetermined length of time, such as one year, and that after that the Patrol Leader may be eligible for reelection. This will simplify the matter greatly in instances where a Patrol Leader has performed poorly and might have to be asked to step down in order to permit more efficient leadership to take his place.

 

If conditions arise which necessitate a change in Patrol Leaders before the end of the year, such as would occur in the case of resignation, transfer or removal, the office should be filled at once, preferably by the advancement of the Assistant Patrol Leader. The new leader will then remain in office for the remiander of the year, when he may be available for reelection to a "second term."

 

It is well to keep in mind that as many boys as possible should have an opportunity to gain leadership experience. For that reason no single individual should be allowed to "monopolize" the Patrol Leadership over a long period of time to the exclusion of other capable and worthy Scouts. But when a Patrol Leader moves out of that position the Scoutmaster should see to it that some other opportunity opens up for him so that he may continue his interest.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Stosh 3452]

I guess I don't wish to step down on a lower level to discuss this so I'll merely state that training can and does happen in many different forms. There's the book learning stuff, there's hands on artsy crafty kind of things, then there's experience that one learns by actually doing the job.

 

I have mentioned I have all my boys trained in TLT, Green Bar Patrol and some of them have attended NYLT. So they got the book learning stuff and a little of the hands on stuff, but many times that doesn't get translated into the real world without experience.

 

I have been hearing comments on the postings indicating BSA is teaching patrol method, but never being able to get it to take hold in the troops. Well, "all the book learnin' in the world ain't gonna cut it." Now that my boys have all graduated from just about all that BSA leadership training provides, it's time for them to graduate on to the college of hard knocks. If the boys aren't taking what they learn into the field then training is a waste of time and so is going out into the field. I can expound my insight into a ton of stuff for the boys, I can provide recipies and instructions until I'm blue in the face, but until he grabs onto the handle of the skillet he's not going to learn how to cook.

 

I may be clueless on a few things, but real life isn't one of them and that's what I'm teaching my boys by letting them get out in the field and learn by doing. I don't expect any of my boys to figure it out the first time, but if I keep stepping in for more and more training of these kids, they'll never have the opportunity to actually learn. If all this training does is fill the boys with knowledge it is a total waste of time, until the boys translate that into functionality, one will never get such things as patrol method into their troops. No recipe ever put dinner on the table, the cook did. Once you've done all you can to train them, then you have to learn to trust them to apply that training without further interference.

 

Yep, once we hit the field, it's coffee and campfires all the way, baby! If they need assistance, they always know where to find me that way. It's really a bummer trying to hunt down a SM who's off messing in the leadership of some other patrol.

 

Stosh

[Kudu 186]

Once again I stand corrected by Brent

 

I really spaced on that one, since in the past I have pointed out that Patrol elections were a legacy of the period when the BSA instructed Scoutmasters not to allow Patrol Leaders to make decisions. When Hillcourt was a Patrol Leader and then a Scoutmaster in Denmark he would not have experienced Patrol elections because they were not part of Baden-Powell's Scouting.

 

I should have written that it was books about Baden-Powell's program in the rest of the world that did not force regular elections on Patrols. For those like Brent who like to verify, here is the 1938 Canadian version of Baden-Powell's Policy, Organisation, & Rules (PO&R):

 

http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_150dpi.pdf

 

We never had regular elections when I was a Scout, nor in our Troop when I was a Scoutmaster up north. When a Patrol Leader burns out or can not camp because of sports, the Patrol just picks a new one. When a Patrol Leader has real responsibilities, he usually does not try to cling to the position just to save face. I used to find out about a Patrol election only when a Scout told me that he needed a Patrol Leader patch.

 

In Troops like Brent's where Patrols use the Patrol Method at summer camp and participate in high adventure activities, Patrol Leaders serve an actual function. Such Patrols tend to pick more wisely, especially if the adult leaders stress that the priority is NOT rapid six month turn-over for the sake of allowing others to get POR "credit."

 

In the "old books" that Mafaking cites, the business of a Patrol was Patrol Hikes (these were entertainment, with each one based on what were called "hike themes") and Patrol Overnights.

 

Controlled risk.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Eagledad 2777]

>>Obviously the adults are convincing themselves that they are having the kids lead when in fact they are setting the agenda and eventually the boys figure it out. This is following, not leading.