All for youth led, but how much guidance is needed...

[DeanRx]

Well the follow up...

 

Survived and as a whole the campout was good. NSP worked well as a team (for the most part) and scouts were successful in completing many advancement requirements for TF and a couple items for 2nd class and one for 1st class.

 

That being said - I am asking for a meeting with the SM to sort out some things.

 

1) SM was gone all weekend with older boys on a Trek (dropped off AM on Sat and picked up Sun PM), a committee member was left in charge of base camp. Not much adult leadership other than making sure the scouts didn't kill each other.

 

2) Had to intervene 3 times on son's behalf because he asked his PL to sign off on TF requirement of "present yourself dressed for a cmapout with all gear....". Showed up to depart location early, son asked, was told... No, were too busy now. OK, so he asked on Saturday (got to camp Fri at 9pm - late start for many reasons, mostly disorganization) he was told "No, you have to be in uniform (BSA scout shirt, not t-shirt) for the requirement." Ok, but requirement states "Dressed for a campout", not dressing in uniform for a campout. I finally spoke with PL's dad on the side and stated this needed to be done Sunday AM (kids would have uniforms on for flag ceremony). Son went on one campout previously last month (PL was not in attendance) so he asked comm. member (same one that was "in charge" this time) to sign off then. Got told same thing... we're too busy getting going, you'll have to get it signed off next time. Well, if I hadn't had the chat with PL's father, the "next time" would have been "we're too busy to sign off on your requirement" again

 

3) Son and two others in his Patrol got sick to stomache Saturday mid-day. I finally stuck my nose into their patrol area Saturday PM offering to help son and fellow scout (both of whom who had barfed earlier in the day) with their KP duties and found raw egg and egg shells from breakfast still on their patrol table and around the patrol box. I'm all for scouts leading scouts and needing to struggle a little to learn, but PL, ASPL, SPL or any "offical" adult leader in attendance had not checked on this patrol close enough to figure out they were having food safety issues in their patrol!

 

4) Son and friend stuck on KP (even when ill) while all others in camp gathered 50 yards away for campfire. I went over to help them out and found them trying to scrub pan w/ cooked on cheese with hot water and paper towel. "you guys got any soap?", "Nope, we ran out...", "You got a SOS pad?" "Nope, they didn't give us one." I go over to adult patrol box and get them the tools needed to do the job. PL, ASPL, SPL, adult leader - NONE checked on them - would have let them go on through entire campfire struggling! I had to have a talk with my son after we returned, because he was not helping his patrol mates clean up from b-fast this morning... his response was "well nobody but YOU helped me and XXXXX last night, why should I help them? Its their turn!" So.... this is the "leadership" we are teaching? Had a long talk w/ dear son about doing what is right, even when others do not.

 

5) This AM after flags, b-fast, and scouts own... ASM offers to NSP that if they get their patrol area all broken down and policed by 9:30, he would teach Totin' Chip to the new guys. ASM then proceeds to sit in chair and sip coffee (good for him). 9:35am, I go walk through Patrol area, they are just putting last of their gear by the trucks. I ask ASM if he's going to go teach the class? "Yup, in a minute." As he sat there working on his Rubix Cube pyramid... 9:45am, I ask him again, if he's going to go teach the class he offered, as the scouts had met his requirement to be ready by 9:30am. ASM begrudingly got off his *ss and finally went over and taught the Totin' Chip. I would have done it myself, but I am not a registered leader with the troop, nor have been trained yet to offer the class (not sure I WANT to get in a leadership role with this unit at this point)....

 

Seems to me, the SM is a great guy (known and camped with him both in cubs and just as families for the past 5+ years), but the rest of the adult "leaders" (and I use that term VERY loosely with some of these guys) rely on the SM for most everything and seem to flail without him. Not sure how you expect the SPL, ASPL, and PL's to be squared away when the adults can't seem to get their act together...

 

Overall, not a bad campout. Son claims he had fun and learned a lot despite some frustration and yacking twice on Staurday afternoon / evening. However, saw firsthand some questionable leadership tactics and some outright unscoutlike attitudes from both scouters and scouts. A LOT of the scout on scout teaching was always prefaced with "Hey, I'll teach you this using EDGE, so you can get signed off and I can get it signed off for my 1st class rank." While I understand that the requirements call for older scouts to teach the younger scouts as part of both scout's rank requirements.... I question the mentality and mindset that is being instilled when the ONLY time the older scouts seem to want to interact with the NSP is when there is a box to get checked off on their own advancement! Its a lot more about "what's in it for me?" Instead of, "How can we help the new guys learn some scout skills they need."

 

Oh well, should be an interesting convesation with my SM friend over a cold adult beverage in the next couple days...

[Lisabob]

Dean, I'm glad your son had a good time.

 

Couple of things.

 

1. You have identified some items that are definite concerns, and I agree you should have a good talk with the SM/friend about this.

 

2. but you might also want to seriously consider backing away for a bit. I do not want to make light of the issues you raise, but when you (as a parent, unregistered, and new to the troop) are telling a 12 year old PL to sign off on something for your son, you are probably too involved. This doesn't mean you're wrong, but there are other ways to address this that don't include new unregistered parents directing PLs around on advancement issues.

 

Talk to the SM. Share your observations. You have valid points. But next camp out, stay home unless you have a specific role to play at the camp out, other than parent.

 

 

[qwazse]

Yep, this group needs a little more guidance.

I personally don't care about if an adult's on the roster, I would probably use their guest status as a carrot. Some thing like: "PLs, after the meal, I'm asking Mr. DeanRx to walk around your sights and inspect for cleanliness. At campfire/flags we'll gather and review any problems he saw. Tidest partrol gets a cup of candy coated almonds from my personal stash."

 

I definitely ask adults if there is anything they'd like to help the boys learn and announce to the boys a time and location. (Usally someplace within earshot so I can still enjoy my coffee and knot puzzle ) Again, I'm not looking for a patch on someone's sleeve. Just a Person willing to use his time.

 

[insert vitriolic diatribe re: EDGE from my other posts here] Understand that the boy may not be as selfish has it sounds. He might be saying "your helping me by letting me help you."

 

The PLs need to learn to set aside time during the day to review progress. Things can't always be signed off the minute they're done, but there should be a moment, say after dinner, that the PL can commit to. That way, he's nearby to supervise KP.

 

It sounds like the older boys are gearing up for some high adventure. So this may be the way things will be for quite a few campouts. Meet with SM, and see how things improve. Every ASM has his/her style. You will need to figure out how you can work with the one you've got!

 

[Stosh]

DeanRx,

 

Here's my take on your situation.

 

Take the time with your son to review each of these issues and allow him the opportunity to evaluate how next time those items can be resolved before the event, i.e. assign someone as a patrol QM who will bring a small bottle of soap for the patrol box, etc.

 

Ask your son how he will be handling his advancement in the future when others are "too busy" to help out at camp-outs.

 

Spend some time with your son on how to address older scouts and scout leaders in a positive, but effective way. The NSP was ready for the Totin' Chit, and the SM was not responsive. The NSP should have approached him, not a parent. Have they been "trained" in how to follow up with adults?

 

As an adult, you know the ropes of life, but these kids do not. Your role as parent is to teach the ropes to the boys, not do it for them. Otherwise they will never learn.

 

Your boy did well to take up the KP when everyone else abandoned them for the campfire. Shows some early signs of good servant leadership.

 

I would address the issue of food safety to your son and work with him in understanding the importance of doing it right. Even if he's not on KP or cooking, keeping a helpful eye on his patrol buddies will go a long way in keeping himself from food-borne illnesses. Another important aspect of servant leadership.

 

As far as the advancement issues and adding to the requirements, i.e. in full uniform instead of "dressed for the outing". Are issues that your son can bring up at a scoutmaster's conference which he can ask for at any time. Sooner the better. I am sure he's not the only one experiencing this problem and when he addresses the issue with the leadership, he is speaking for more than himself. Again, more servant leadership. "With all due respect, Mr. SM, I fulfilled the requirement for XXXX and I was told that they were too busy to sign off. Is this the accepted policy/tradition of the troop? If not, what might you suggest to assist me with this problem." 1) it solves problems your son may be experiencing, 2) solves same problem others might be experiencing, and 3) gives a valid reason for your son to interact with the adults of the troop. I would suggest to your son he approach the PL when he is not as busy and have him sign off on the requirement before calling for an SMC. The problem may resolve itself at that point.

 

The issues you point on in your latest post are how After Action Reports work! Each one of these issues needs to be evaluated by the boys, not the parents on the forum. Issues that evoke strong feelings normally have the appropriate energy to deal with them. However, if that energy is dissipated elsewhere, the issues doesn't get resolved.

 

What you have identified are great AAR issues that your son and his patrol need to resolve before the next outing. If done correctly, the boys will be one step closer to a great outing. If your son adopts this process after every outing, he's on his way to becoming a great SPL/Eagle. Also, it's to all of these new boys and new PL, an opportunity to work things through to come up with solutions that work for their patrol. Sounds like a great growth opportunity for your son.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

>>Survived and as a whole the campout was good. NSP worked well as a team (for the most part) and scouts were successful in completing many advancement requirements for TF and a couple items for 2nd class and one for 1st class.

 

..

 

1) SM was gone all weekend with older boys on a Trek (dropped off AM on Sat and picked up Sun PM), a committee member was left in charge of base camp. Not much adult leadership other than making sure the scouts didn't kill each other.

[advancement lady]

Sounds like things are moving along pretty well. I know how frustrating it is, as a parent, when your scout is trying so hard (ready for inspection) and is dismissed (too busy). It is also difficult for one person to be in charge of so much (PL). It does sound like there is a need for flexibility (no you're not in uniform~ he was earlier) and a conversation with the scout master would be a good idea. Maybe your son should bring up his concerns with you in the meeting for support and clarification.

 

I think you did the right thing, intervening, and encouraging your son to try to resolve it himself with asking more than once.

 

[Lisabob]

Barry says: "I dont see how this troop will retain 50 percent of its new scouts in six months. A couple more campouts like this and I would be looking for something more fun like sleeping late on Saturday morning. "

 

 

Well I do agree with that. And the food safety thing is no joke and did need to be addressed. The SM may not be fully aware of how poorly those left in charge oversaw their young scouts and delivered the program, in his absence. Dean should certainly have that discussion with the SM.

 

On the other hand, I don't think that parents of new scouts are well positioned to intervene with PLs on advancement issues or general program stuff. While again, I think Dean's observations are relevant, I don't think him stepping in and telling the young PL of his son's patrol what to do is a good way to go. This indicates that more training of the PLs could be in order, but it isn't Dean's job to do that training for his son's PL so that his son can get sign offs.

 

 

Recollection of being a new parent:

 

My son's first PL was a really nice kid who is about 2 years older than my son. The kid's scout skills were weak. So were his leadership skills. Turns out (I found this out much later), part of the reason he was assigned as PL of the NSP was to encourage him to up his game and give him a confidence boost. As a parent of a new scout under his care though, I was initially more concerned with my kid having a decent experience than with the growth of his PL. That was a difficult thing to watch.

 

By the way, it seemed to work for the PL. A couple years later, he served well as ASPL and then as a troop instructor, and I was very pleased to sit on his Eagle BOR later on. I did enjoy watching him grow over the years.

 

Several years down the road, my own son served as SPL for a year and I got to see things from another side. The younger/new scouts followed him around like puppies on a string and he came to understand how important his actions were, in their eyes. He did many things well, but he flubbed a few things, too. And some things were flubbed by others, but seemed like they were his doing because he was SPL.

 

When things got flubbed, it was most helpful for adults to have a behind the scenes conversation with him and to work through the SM to guide him. It was least helpful for random parents to be descending on him in the middle of things with (often contradictory or wrong or unreasonable) demands or 'advice.' And yet, by virtue of being adults, plenty of parents opted to do exactly that. Even when they were right, it was often not helpful because of the way they chose to do it.

 

So safety issues aside, I think we need to curb our own instincts to step in and tell youth leaders what to do, especially as new parents who might not have the credibility or see the full story yet. That doesn't mean we never say anything; it does mean we work with and through the SM and others when possible.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>On the other hand, I don't think that parents of new scouts are well positioned to intervene with PLs on advancement issues or general program stuff.>I'm all for scouts leading scouts and needing to struggle a little to learn, but PL, ASPL, SPL or any "offical" adult leader in attendance had not checked on this patrol close enough to figure out they were having food safety issues in their patrol!

[JMHawkins]

Dean, I think the converstaion you need to have with the SM is one that says (in whatever words you think will be most effective) "Buddy, you're darn lucky it was me out there and not some other new parent who doesn't know you that saw this. They would have flipped out..."

 

Lisabob and Barry both make really good points. This troop needs to put more effort into training the adult leaders and into getting the younger scouts goings. If you're going to have a NSP, you can't just leave 'em essentially unsupervised. Shouldn't there be an ASM assigned to help the NSP and the PL for it? Forcing the parent of one of the new scouts into that role impromptu is not how it's supposed to be done, and long term isn't a recipe for success. You said the PL joined the Troop last year? I'm assuming he spent that year as a member of the NSP then, so he's probably never seen a real Patrol Leader functioning. No wonder he doesn't know what his job is. Doesn't seem like he's preparing his patrol for a campout, looking after it on the campout, or helping his scouts with advancement. He needs a mentor.

 

So, trying to synthesize Lisabob and Barry's points, Dean I think your actions on the campout sound reasonable under the circumstances, but you should seek to avoid repeating them. That probably requires more confidence on your part that the same problems aren't continuing, which requires some more effort from the SM directed towards the new scouts and the adults in proximity to them.

 

 

 

 

 

[DeanRx]

Just to clarify, I did not at anytime, address any issue directly with the PL. I addressed it with pls dad, who happened to be on the campout & is registered as an adult leader... He's the troop treasurer. I only addressed the advancement issue AFTER my son had been dismissed twice with his request for inspection.

 

Thanks for the feedback, will be having a discussion w SM tonight.

[Sentinel947]

how did it go?

[neil_b]

If you have the patrol method and use it consistently that's the main thing. That's what sets Scouting apart. Read a pre-1980's scoutmaster handbook if you need help with the patrol method.

[DeanRx]

Well, had a nice pint with my buddy (the SM). The beer was good and the conversation better.

 

He took over 9 months ago amid an issue that had the CO and COR mandating that the current SM and an ASM take a "hiatus" from direct interaction with the youth.... Hmmm, I'll leave that one alone for now, but lets just say the compass of morally straight lost its bearing for a couple of leaders.

 

So, dear friend takes over and is trying to right the ship. Every single issue I brought up, he is aware of and is actively trying to "fix". His main two issues: 1) an old 'culture' for lack of a better term in which NSP's were and have been put through the wringer just because they could be. 2) Plenty of "camping dads", but very few if any that wanted to step up and put on a shirt as an ASM to fill the void left with the untimely departure of the previous SM and one ASM.

 

The guy in charge of the base camp, I come to find out IS on the committee as a parent, but is NOT registered as an ASM and has NOT been trained as such other than to complete YPG. I'll give the guy a break as he was doing the best he could with his background and what he knew.

 

The guy (I assumed ASM) that I kicked in the butt to do the totin' chip after he agreed to for the NSP is the ousted-pre-SM and this was his first outing back with the unit since the departure. Needless to say, his attitude was less than scoutlike, and my personal opinion is his time with the unit needs to come to a close ASAP!!! I since learned (at the troop meeting last night) that he took away a scout's Totin' chip in the parking lot of the CO post campout on Sunday without explaining to the scout WHY, and he refused to sign off on a 1st class scouts requirement to "visit with an elected offical...." because the boy didn't have a letter or business card PROVING he had done the visit! That to me is adding to the requirement! This guy just likes to make kids jump through hoops because he can and its a power trip. Trouble is, this has trickled down to the senior scout's attitude towards the younger boys. Lots of, "I outrank you, so you need to x,y,z... for me..."

 

Current SM had a skit at last nights meeting regarding "pulling rank" and informed all in attendance that the ONLY scouts allowed to tell another scout what to do was a green bar and only in their capacity as a PL, ASPL, or SPL. He stated in no uncertain terms that ANY other scout heard or seen pulling rank by ANYONE is subject to immediate SM conference and potential discipline action.

 

So.... a step in the right direction...

 

Additionally, I was asked by the SM to put in my application with the unit to be an ASM. Did that last night. I agrees and think if I'm going to bring up the problems, I should put my $ where my mouth is and become part of the solution.

 

SM's vision and mine are the same... get some of these "camping dads" off the sidelines and get them to commit as ASM's with the purpose being each patrol / PL will have ONE ASM per term as their patrol advisor. The SM will be the patorl advisor to the SPL and ASPL.

 

It is still the patrol method, but with a specific coach / mentor the scouts in a leadership position can rely on for advice and an adult that can do spot checks on progress, safety, advancement on unit outings.

 

As the SM stated to me, "Youth led, doesn't mean youth abandoned." Which I agree with. he is just trying to overcome an old guard's mentality that had parents on campouts told specifically that is they were not the Sm or ASM, they could not be in a patrol's area or speak to the scouts, other than the SPL. Its was a very hands off environment.

 

The new goal is Patrol method with oversight and mentoring, while allowing the youth to still lead and make the final decisions in the unit. Not sure what I just got myself into, but at least it will be an adventure!

 

dean

[Sentinel947]

Dean, it sounds like your troop has had some tough times. Continue to support the Scoutmaster, show solidarity with him in public and disagree with him in private. He needs every bit of help he can get. Culture changes with the Boy Leadership will take patience and a few years, unless you get an exceptionally mature Boy in top leadership very soon. I highly urge you, assuming you have the time, to get trained and become an ASM yourself. I hope your Boy enjoys Scouting and sticks with the program.

 

Best of luck,

Sentinel

[Lisabob]

I'm glad to hear it went well and that your friend/the SM have a common vision of where you think the troop needs to go in order to better serve the boys. Sounds like there could be some real drama along the way, unfortunately. Hopefully, the drama will be dispensed with quickly and you can all get to focusing on having a great program.