A new scandal

[JMHawkins]

Victims of abuse can take a long time to come forward, the reasons can be shame, desire not to let their parents know i.e. wait for Mom and Dad to pass before going to court, desire to forget, or fear ("say anything and I will kill your family") and then there is the possibility of DNA evidence which may have been unknown at the time of the crime.

 

Whether the trial occurs a year, ten, or forty years later, the accused still has to be proven guilty beyond a doubt. This applies to murder cases, add "child abuse' as well.

 

Evidence exists on both sides of an issue, and it degrades over time. Trying to determine the facts of an event decades after it happened is going to challege the integrity of the justice system. It's challeged enough as it is. Yes, there are reasons someone might not have come forward. We're far better off trying to deal with those reasons going forward than trying to find some way to accomodate them looking backwards.

 

BSAs reputation, not to mention the safety of youths in the program, depends more on what is done to combat abuse today and tomorrow rather than what is done to redress abuse done yesterday. Frankly, this talk of statue of limitations seems to imply that BSA has been egaged in some sort of cover-up a la the Catholic church. I don't think that is the case - as others have said, BSA's files are an indication of doing the right thing, trying to track predators and keep them from just moving down the road a pace. It's an acknoweldgement that predators will be drawn to the program and the program needs to defend the children in it against them. We should highlight that - maybe other programs will pick it up.

 

Let's be clear, as a parent I have no desire to hear the message "don't worry, if your child is molested by one of our volunteers, we'll pay your medical bills and court costs." Nobody wants a money back gurantee on a parachute. They want the parachute to work.

[Basementdweller]

There is no possible way to prevent it.....

 

There will always be that one guy in po dunk indiana, oregon, New mexico or kentucky. he will gain the trust of the family and boy then, bad stuff.

 

Of course it isn't a country thing....I think big city folks are aware of what the human animal can do and are not as trusting....

[JMHawkins]

There is no possible way to prevent it.....

 

No, there isn't a way to 100% guarantee it'll never happen. But there are ways to reduce the chances, and that's what we should focus on. In fact, the idea that any failure to prevent abuse is inexcusable and should result in draconian consequences for the organization is highly counter-productive for that very reason. Although the threat of consequences helps to ensure people do what they need to do, there is a point of not just diminshing, but negative returns. If good faith efforts are not enough to protect honest people from a failure that cannot be 100% prevented, life becomes just a crap-shoot and good faith efforts happen less often because they're not rewarded. The perfect becomes the enemy of the good. I think this is a mistake our legal system is highly prone to, and it's sad that catering to that largely broken system is coming to dominate so many aspects of our lives.

 

Ultimately the risks of cloistering our kids outweigh the risks they may be abused. There is no path we can take through life that is free of danger. All we can do is be prepared to recognize it, face it, and counter it as best we can.

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm with JMHawkins on the issue of statutes of limitations. Statutes of limitations are a very good thing. They are necessary to protect the innocent.

 

RembemberSchiff, da statute of limitations at issue in these cases is for civil tort and negligence, not criminal battery. The standard of proof in such civil cases is not "beyond a reasonable doubt" but rather is generally "by preponderance of the evidence", and doesn't usually require a unanimous jury.

 

So what we're sayin', if we eliminate statutes of limitations, is that a sympathetic 40 year old can tell a tale that sounds reasonable and convincing to a majority of jurors, eh? Especially if some of 'em don't care for scouting much anyways. Can you remember what you were doing on the weekend campout 30 years ago? Can yeh remember who was there? Are they still alive to be able to testify in your defense? Did yeh keep attendance records for all these years?

 

The accusation alone is often enough to destroy someone's reputation and livelihood. Allowin' highly emotional cases like these to proceed when in all likelihood the passage of time has made it impossible for a defendant to mount a defense is fundamentally unfair. It would be absolutely foolish for scouters to support that.

 

Beavah

 

[RememberSchiff]

With a statue of limitations and time exceeded, the alleged abuser wins whether he/she is innocent or guilty while the alleged victim (plaintiff) never had a day in court.

 

Admittedly I am more concerned with the scout than the scouter or corporate, as the legal scales seemed tipped in favor of the last two. I think showing more concern for the scout, like Scouts-Canada is attempting, is the way out of this "perversion files"/lawsuit/PR mess.

 

My $0.01,

[eisely]

I am completely with Beavah on statutes of limitations. I have always been very skeptical of cases brought on the basis of "repressed memories." There are too many opportunities for outright falsification and manipulation by shrinks. Look at the history of the child abuse sensations of the 80's where very young children in pre schools were persuaded and rewarded by their interviewers to testify about things for which there was no corroborating evidence. People went to jail based on such testimony. And these cases were brought fairly promptly after the alleged incidents.

[Engineer61]

"No, I think Beavah has it right - the best thing we can do is give kids as many trustworthy friends - adults and peers - in their lives as possible so they have someone they feel they can turn to if something isn't right."

 

Yeah, let's grab the guitar, sit in a circle and go sing "Kum by yah". Some of you make me want to throw up from your cowardice...

 

Try this...reality.

 

Before every new Troop year, have an all parents meeting with the SM and someone from (at least) the District, and a local law enforcement officer.

 

SM: "Welcome to BSA. We want to be as open and honest with you about our Troop and our Organization. Many of you have heard about past and recent issues concerning the sexual abuse of Troop members by adult leaders. While we attempt to prevent these kinds of incidents, they do still happen. Last year alone, X incidents of sexual abuse were reported in this Troop, X incidents in the district and X incidents nationwide. It is important that you all understand the risk you are taking by placing your boys in our care, and what you can do to help us to prevent such incidents, or help apprehend and prosecute those adults who are abusing children from within BSA."

 

Then, there needs to be a lengthy education session to the parents separately, the boys separately and then the parents and boys together...so everyone knows what is going on and what to do about it.

 

Anything short of this kind of open communcation, and the BSA is just another pedophile farm, like the Catholic Church.

[JoeBob]

And after THAT sales pitch, every parent and boy would head for home and LOCK the DOOR!

[Tampa Turtle]

We are dealing in risk management not risk elimination. But if we enforce the YPT and screening folks we are moving in the right direction.

[Engineer61]

"And after THAT sales pitch, every parent and boy would head for home and LOCK the DOOR!"

 

Maybe that's what needs to happen ...

 

... but more than likely, it would put everyone on a closer watch and some of the pedo's might get the idea to get out of BSA.

 

And BSA would gain a ton of credibility.

 

Personally, BSA would be a lot better off by getting rid of a couple of primary CO groups.

[Eagle92]

Eng,

 

Do you do the this with your sports teams? Does the various sports federations? I know I have heard a lot about coaches abusing kids, taking explicit photos, ad nauseum. I mean if you and other coaches and sports federations don't have this kind of open communication, then the sports world is just another pedophile farm, like the Catholic Church.

 

Sorry Eng, gotta disagree with you.

[moosetracker]

Well those age appropriate videos ??"A time to Tell"?? on what to look out for in preditors are supposed to be played once a year to your unit.. Who does that??

 

I know we did it once, with our troop.. And I don't know why I had it (maybe when son was Den Cheif, but except for being taxi I don't remember doing much when he was) Anyway, after playing for troop, I played the age appropriate one for a Den.. I should have looked at it first. The parents all gave consent and watched with the child, but none of us viewed the tape. The troop age one was alot less scary then the Pack one.. Maybe they thought hints were good enough for older boys, but the younger ones needed every detail imaginable?

 

Well except for that once, and if son was Den Chief that had to be about 10 years back we never did it for troop again. Don't know about Pack..

 

But, I do think that statue of limitation is fine for accusation.. I lean toward, not having a statue if there is DNA evidence, and a match comes in 20 years later.. But, I have only heard the pros for waving the statue for DNA.. I could be swayed to the other side if someone has a good arguement against it.

[Eagle92]

I know I received a few complaints back in the day when I showed the CS video at a 'Health-o-ree." Some and I admit I felt a bit uncomfortable showing it. But at the time, BSA did hire experts in that specific field to do the video, using the most up-to-date info. And if memroy serves, it was done through an outside agency, not a 'homegrown" video filmed in the national office's studio using employees.

[Engineer61]

"Do you do the this with your sports teams?"

 

No, but I wish they would ... it's probably coming ... there are always parents watching us though and no overnights.

 

The only kid I ever do anything one-on-one with is my own.

 

We've had criminal background checks for several years now...several coaches banned for DUI's.

[Eagle92]

Eng,

 

If your organization is doing what you suggest the BSA to do, then how can you critize the BSA, but not your own organization? Also I do know of some leagues that do overnite travel. And some parents do just the drop off, or if they are there, oblivious to everything as they are in their own world.

 

Not trying to be harsh, but the comments you made were rather offensive. At least as they appear online. One of the problems with not seeing and hearing the person talk to ya.