Though Shalt Nots...

[Proud Eagle]

(...steps on soap box...)

 

I really enjoy most things about Scouting, but I do have a list of things I don't like about it.

 

One of the things at the top of my list of dislikes is having to deal with adults regarding things Scouting says you can't do. Just recently a rather capable Scoutmaster told me about using one of those small backyard type zip-lines running over a pond during a weekend. I had to cringe inwardly and then relate about helping run a COPE zip line and the fact that what he did was probably lots of fun but was probably not allowed. Those sorts of things seem to happen quite a lot.

 

One of the only things that is worse than that is when the youth come up with a perfectly good program idea that they then have to be told is not allowed by the rules, which also happens with rather a high degree of regularity.

 

The list of program related things that would have been possible if nor for the rules is rather long. It starts with the Scouts wanting to do lazer tag or paint ball and just gets longer and longer.

 

To make it worse their local church camps and youth groups are offering forms of outdoor adventure that Scouting does not allow itself to offer. So do all sorts of other clubs and organizations.

 

Once upon a time if you wanted to do something adventurous Scouting was probably the best place to do it.

 

Today we look up and down the lake and just about every other camp offers some sort of program that BSA rules prevent us from offering.

 

I am always amazed at the results certain leaders and units produce considering we often face not only stiff competition for membership but also fight our battles with one hand tide behind our backs.

 

When I am rather honest about things, I have to say that Scouting delivers the promise... sometimes... partially... to some people.

 

(...steps off soap box...)

[dkurtenbach]

I agree that many restrictions seem silly in light of what kids can do at commercial facilities, non-Scout camps, and at activities affiliated with other organizations -- particularly when there really is no substantial safety issue, or when BSA's rules differ from those of governing associations or recognized authorities for the particular activity.

 

At the same time, I can't think of any such restricted activities that, if allowed, would make any real contribution to the Scouting program. And we'd just be offering the same activities as those other providers.

 

If we want to stand out as a distinctive program in the marketplace of youth activities, I think it would make sense to focus on the activities that other providers _don't_ regularly offer or that otherwise aren't readily available to youth.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Dan K.

[Beavah]

I think it would make sense to focus on the activities that other providers _don't_ regularly offer or that otherwise aren't readily available to youth.

 

Nah. There are outfitters and other providers that offer all of da same things we offer, and then some. Except maybe funny-lookin' uniforms (well, then again, there's band...)

 

Where scoutin' contributes is that it

 

1) offers a wide range of activities.

2) actually teaches how to do/lead the activities, rather than just do a guided tourist-type experience.

3) focuses on young folks.

4) uses da activities to also address citizenship/values.

5) is less expensive because it's largely a (worldwide) volunteer movement.

6) is a long-term, year-round program rather than a one-shot outing/activity.

 

But there are lots of other providers, from Christian Camps to outdoor leadership schools to school clubs that do provide a lot of those things, eh?

 

Each time we prohibit an activity or tie it up in too much paperwork, we lose somethin' that can be the "hook" for some kids. And that hurts da program. It reduces our appeal, and our ability to reach the boys.

 

What have we lost? Let's see...

 

-- ATVs (part of many teen camp programs and youth and adult outdoor recreation)

-- Karate/Martial Arts (very popular among parents/youth)

-- Basic fireworks in states where they're legal (wouldn't yeh like to make sure kids learn to handle such things safely, since we know they're goin' to use 'em?)

-- Tethered hot air balloons (feature open even to little kids at many county fairs)

-- Experimental class aircraft (like old warbirds)

-- Go-carts (feature open even to young kids in many areas)

-- Paintball

-- Laser Tag

-- Squirt guns

-- Hunting (for boy scouts, even though in many areas it's a common activity for teens)

-- Jet-Skis

-- Tree climbing with safety gear (never did understand this, eh? We prohibit climbing with safety gear, but allow it without?)

-- Bungee cord stuff (now a feature at many resorts and amusement parks)

 

That's just da Unauthorized Activity list, eh? Then yeh run into all da other things where rules, recommendations or paperwork become prohibitive, like

 

-- Our council had several EAA clubs stop offerin' BSA units orientation flights in aircraft and Aviation MB because the paperwork became too onerous.

-- Da climbing guidance essentially prohibits most sport bouldering.

-- Other ropes course/monkey bridge guidance restricts stuff that's common in many programs.

-- A farmer can't operate somethin' as simple as a hay-ride for scouts or cubs (because he's not allowed to operate his own tractor without a BSA certified ranger supervising).

-- Direct over-21 supervision now required for most activities, where common practice (even in BSA camps) is to use under-21 adults as supervisors. Biking, skating, backcountry hiking, swimming, etc.

-- No use of cannons by reenactment crews.

-- No BB guns for cub scouts and webelos

-- No slow-moving river canoeing for cubs and webelos (a common family activity throughout da midwest)

-- No small-lake rowboating for cubs or webelos (again, a common activity)

-- No rafting for cubs or webelos (again, a common activity)

-- No Webelos campin' without a parent (a common school activity for 4th or 5th graders)

-- No Jumpin' off a rock into safe water (from more than 5 feet up)

-- No Swimmin' when the water is deeper than 12 feet (includin' most Triathalons)

-- No Swimmin' in many locations/areas where swimmin' is common (because SSD restrictions make it too onerous or not allowed)

-- Hard to navigate rules for dealin' with youth and adults and genders in common cabin sleeping arrangements.

-- Recommended no climbing for cubs

-- Helmet requirements that aren't industry norms (ex. skiing, indoor climbing, etc.)

 

and of course all da paperwork!

 

And that's just from me spendin' a few minutes flippin' through G2SS, eh?

 

Beavah

 

 

 

 

[dkurtenbach]

Just a reminder that I am not defending these restrictions in any way. The "we don't want our image to be of an organization that allows boys to point toy guns at each other" is particularly offensive, it seems to me. I'm just suggesting that in the bigger picture, these particular restrictions on certain activities (including the hoops we have to jump through to do certain _allowed_ activities) are largely irrelevant.

 

Even if we could do all of those things (or do them easily), we'd still simply be competing with all of the other organizations that do those things. Do we really think that Scouting could automatically do those things "better" than those other organizations? And if we're doing the same things as the other organizations, how does that provide a "hook" for Scouting? And if a boy chooses Scouting, he's still free to do those other things with his friends and family on his own time.

 

We still go hiking, camping, swimming, canoeing, climbing, caving, cycling, rafting, sailing, snowshoeing, shooting, and backpacking. We still build fires, cook meals, practice first aid, work with map and compass, and tie knots and lashings. All without too much fuss and bother.

 

Yes, nonsensical restrictions and requirements are annoying, and can make us look like morons from time to time. And yes, we need to protest silliness and be vigilant that the program isn't gutted by spineless bureaucrats. But with tens of thousands of young people going to Philmont Scout Ranch every summer, and tens of thousands more going on other high adventure trips each year, and tens of thousands more doing various high adventure activities every weekend, I don't think Scouting is anywhere close to being in mamby-pamby land.

[Eagle92]

Dan,

 

In knots and lashings imust respectfully disagree to a degree. yes we still teach them, but to a degree we no longer apply them.

 

I remember as a scout building a "Bosun's Chair" at our scout shows as a youth. Basically it was a 20 foot tripod tower lashed together on one end and a 15 foot tripod tower on the other end. Between the two was a cable connected to 2 vehicles and a "Bosun's Chair" that would go from one tower to the other. It had a leash that a scout on the ground would pull the chair across. Because of the height, scouts can no longer build them. Ditto monkey bridges over a certain height, unless apporved by a COPE director and meeting COPE standards. Heck I bet we couldn't recreate the 1937 NSJ photo of a scout on a pioneering tower signalling.

 

Some of the adventure has been taken out of scouting.

[John-in-KC]

Some of the adventure has been taken out of scouting.>/i>

 

That's the key point. If the movement isn't fun, the kids (and their parents) will find the fun they want elsewhere, and BSA the corporation will go the way of the dodo.

[OldGreyEagle]

The thought of the difficulty of recreating the 1937 Jamboree struck me, why is it all the things Beavah listed are unauthorized?

 

Not so long ago the NFL was rumored to stand for the No Fun League

 

When and Why did BSA become short for Basic Simple Activities?

[scoutingagain]

" Basic fireworks in states where they're legal (wouldn't yeh like to make sure kids learn to handle such things safely, since we know they're goin' to use 'em?) "

 

Well that could be said about alot of things. What's wrong with "Just say no".

 

But generally I agree with what others are saying.

 

SA

 

[Eamonn]

Have to admit that I find people who preach at me and go out of their way to dig up rules and the like, do tend to get up my nose.

Worse still is when they are wrong and there isn't a rule!

Seems to me at times, that some people are not happy unless they are making others unhappy.

To date I have yet to get involved in Paint-Ball or Laser Tag.

I have helped organize water fights, snow ball fights and wide games with flash lights. So for me, I don't see any real need to do the laser or paint ball thing.

I'm very much aware that some kids and young adults are into this. In fact I know one Sea Scout who carries his paint ball gear around in the trunk of his car. I suppose if you are into paint ball you never know when the urge for a quick bout might hit and he needs to be ready?

A few of the places that used to offer paint ball in the area where I live have closed. I'm not really sure why? But kinda think that the paint ball craze is starting to wear off. I of course might be 100% wrong.

Pioneering is a Scout activity that I have always loved and even if I say so myself I'm very good at.

I have been an adult leader involved with Scouts for some time.

I enjoy the Scouts I work with and have worked with. I also care very much for them and about them.

While there is some risk in just about everything we do. I hope that I would never place the Scouts in my care in any real danger. Their safety and their well being is always first and foremost.

As for the " Though Shalt Nots..."

I think a lot of the time it's not so much " Though Shalt Not" As Though don't know how to.

Maybe because of what is seen as too many obstacles, rules or regulations? Leaders don't have the real know how to train the Scouts how to do this kinda stuff in such a way as to eliminate a good deal of the risk? Or maybe just messing about with rope and a block and tackle has been replaced with activities like paintball and laser tag? Means that no self-respecting monkey would risk his neck setting foot on a monkey bridge that hasn't been built correctly.

 

A few years back I took a group of adult leaders to our local scout camp site for a day of pioneering. We had a wonderful day building towers, bridges, gateways and floating flagpoles. Each of them said that they couldn't wait to get back to their troops and do this stuff. I offered to help.

So far no one has asked and as far as I know the Troops have yet to start enjoying Scout pioneering.

What a shame.

Ea.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

This is what rule-making bureaucracies do. They legislate for the last percent of everything.

 

Ten-thousand troops build great monkey bridges and have a lot of fun with them, but some jackass builds one over a 30 foot ravine and someone gets hurt, so the rest of of get the legislation.

 

The ones that really get me are laser tag and paint ball. Those are just political dictates.

 

I am encouraged, however, that they do seem to be loosening up some. Near here in Scoutfish and Eagle92 council they're running a test program with jet skis and at other camps ATVs. They seem to finally be embracing SCUBA, although embrace may be an overstatement. And if you read the new 5-year plan, there's language in there about looking outside the program for find new outdoor activities appealing to youth. I just hope they don't legislate things to look like the old posters you used to see of a cowboy designed by OSHA.

[moosetracker]

I knew we were getting restrictive, but the way Beavah listed it, gives you pause to wonder (but not too long or I might get sick..)

 

Yes we can still do alot of things.. But the BSA hook is not to be able to promote just paintball or just ATV's.. Just as it isn't to be solely to promote hiking, or just to promote canoeing.. Or dare I say it.. To just promote ... soccer... ick..

 

I guess some Ventures are that way.. I know troops can lean heavily toward a preference. I know one troop that was more hiking.. but did other things.. One that was so into white water they got their own rafts etc..

 

The real hook into Boy scouts is that we offer a little bit of everything.. From inexpensive hikes to high cost high Adventure..

 

The more we take away as not being allowed, the little more we eat into our hook of offering a program that is diversified, that allow the boys to try and taste a little bit of all that is out there to be enjoyed, and find those things they like alot or have natural skills in.. That is our hook.. That is what we are chewing away at bit by bit..

 

TwoCubDad - The other activities are I fear the hint to the BSA Soccer leagues.. Next will be the Dodgeball & Basketball leagues..

 

Eamonn - I loved this idea

 

A few years back I took a group of adult leaders to our local scout camp site for a day of pioneering. We had a wonderful day building towers, bridges, gateways and floating flagpoles. Each of them said that they couldn't wait to get back to their troops and do this stuff. I offered to help

 

 

I hope you don't mind my using it to break off to another thread.. Even if no one seems to have carried it through to their units, this is exactly the type of stuff I am looking for suggestions on.

 

 

 

 

[acco40]

For Scouts of the the more mature ages (14 - 17) I've told them that certain activities are restricted in the BSA but if they want to pursue them outside of troop, I wasn't going to prevent it. Get your parents permission, plan it, I'll review the plans if requested and then go forth and prosper. I would make it clear to all involved that it was not a Scouting activity (no tour permit, no uniforms, no troop trailer, etc.) but nothing about it was illegal in any way.

 

They boys took that approach for a fireworks event (adult lit fireworks, private property, etc.), laser tag event, etc.

 

It worked for us and I don't fault the BSA for their approach either.

[sherminator505]

"When and Why did BSA become short for Basic Simple Activities?"

 

Good one, OGE. Too bad it hits a little close to the mark. This is what happens when we as a society become litigious and otherwise overly concerned.

 

Both in and out of Scouting, kids are becoming increasingly encased in virtual bubble wrap! This concept is contradictory to what Scouting has traditionally offered and what it tries to accomplish, namely taking the Scout away from Mom and/or Dad, the computer, the video games, creature comforts, electricity, etc. and letting him see what he can really do.

 

I understand that there are things that Scouts can't do because lawyers are involved, but we shouldn't take those caveats to mean that we have to sanitize the program to the point that the boys no longer feel challenged. When that happens, we lose boys.

[CalicoPenn]

Gee - if an activity is prohibited, it just must be because the BSA is afraid of litigation and the risk management folks are just going overboard, right?

 

It's just not possible that there could be other reasons for some of the prohibitions.

 

Sure, BB guns are prohibited at the Pack level - but they aren't at the District or Council level. Must be because the BSA can't trust the volunteers. It's just not possible that they do it so that there are special things that can only be done at Day Camp or a district webelos camping trip which helps make these events something special, and not just a weekend or week long den meeting, right?

 

Same goes for canoeing or row boating - it's just not possible that Packs should have more than enough fun things to do without having to do something that Boy Scouts can do, huh? Why, there's no need for age appropriate guidelines, which have as much to do with keeping some things as special for the older lads (and gals) as it does with making sure the boy is old enough to handle it mentally and physically. I don't hear of many Troops that do Pinewood Derbys, Raingutter Regattas, Spaceship Derbys and Bicycle Safety Rally's, do you? Can't there be some activities that are off-limits to one or two parts of the program so that they are reserved for the other parts? If not, then why even bother with Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venturing. Why not just call it Scouts and have everyone from Tiger on be in the same unit?

 

Same goes for Hunting - There is no ban on hunting for Venturers. Why can't Hunting be reserved as an activity that Boy Scouts just don't get to do - just because they aren't Venturer's?

 

Is not being allowed to use ATV's and Jet Skis in the program really all that onerous? What is the point of including these in the program? Do it because it's fun and who cares that ATV usage has never been a traditional part of Scouting? Instead of backpacking trips, we'll do ATV camping trips instead. Is that what Scouting should be? There's a thread in the forum with a lot of people moaning about the video game awards that Cub Scouts can get - the gist being that it's just not Scouting. Shouldn't the BSA be able to point at certain activities and say "Those just don't fit in with Scouting" without being accused of being overly cautious and anti-fun?

 

Karate isn't allowed - is that really a big deal? Sure, it's popular with a lot of folks but what does it have to do with Scouting? What can Karate do that Tai Chi (allowed) can't? Must we allow everything just because it's popular? I see folks moaning about the potential for becoming "Soccer Scouts". Isn't that really the same thing? I've never heard a Scout, or a parent of a Scout, complain that Karate isn't being offered in Scouts. (On a side note, I don't see many units doing Tai Chi - and that's a shame. Can you imagine, as I can, Troops coming down to gather at the summer camp flag pole being greeted by the site of a Troop that has come down early so that they can warm-up for the day by performing Tai Chi together?)

 

As for lazer tag and paint ball, let's make sure we don't describe them as entirely prohibited. Lazer tag and paintball are allowed for target practice, as long as the target is not alive or in the shape of a human. Sure, it's popular to do lazer tag and paint ball tag games shooting at each other, but doesn't that send a very mixed message when the BSA is also sending out a very strong message on gun safety?

 

I suppose you can look at the "thou shalt nots" and conclude that the BSA just doesn't want Scouts to have fun. Alternatively, you can look at all the things that Scouts can do and realize that "Holy Schnikes, there's so many things we can do that we'll never even miss the stuff we can't or shouldn't do".

[Beavah]

I just hope they don't legislate things to look like the old posters you used to see of a cowboy designed by OSHA.

 

LOL. Yah, I had to go Google that one up, eh? Thanks for my daily dose of humor to keep me young at heart!

 

http://www.sam-hane.com/sass/oshacowb.htm

 

B