troop position question

[janeandraka]

we are members of a large active troop. the way it runs here is that kids can hold more than one position and cannot give them away. what a pain! i have one aggresive son who has 3 positions, and my less aggressive son has noe so cannot advance in rank. thee are 25 boys and 5 hold all the positions. should i transfer the less aggressive kid to a smaller troop. is this way of a few kids holding all positions common??

[Scoutfish]

I'ma Cubber, not a Scouter, so I'mnot the expert here, but i did stay at a Holiday Inn last night! LOL!

 

Seriously, I searched and search abd looked all over. I googledand typed your question in at least 15 different ways.

 

Every result that came back for anybody holding more than one position ..had to do with adult leadership and committee members. And even then,it was only if it had to be, not prefered to be.

 

But now let me ask. What are the positions? I mean, is a scout a SPL and also "Chief tent stower" after camping trips?

 

Not all positions are real positions. Sometimes positions are just duties doled out to certain individuals.

 

Not questioning your smarts...just saying, some positions may not mean anything whenit comes to advancement ( or anything offical, therefor, wouldn't be an issue.

[WAKWIB]

janeandraka

FYI in case you didn't know the positions in a Troop are:

 

Patrol Leader,Assistant Senior Patrol Leader,Senior Patrol Leader,Troop Guide,Order of the Arrow Troop Representative,Den Chief,Scribe,Librarian,Historian,Quartermaster,Bugler,Junior Assistant Scoutmaster,Chaplain Aide, or Instructor

 

I would think it possible that your younger son could fill one of these positions.

As for all the multiple postions/per scout thing going on there, that really is not a great scenario. It's do-able in some cases, but why? All Scouts need to have the opportunity to excerise a responsibility in the troop.

[Oak Tree]

No, it's not common. In fact, I'd say it's pretty uncommon, except for combining den chief with another position. Most troops actually go the other way, giving Scouts positions to make sure that they can advance, even if the position (librarian, historian, whatever) has few or no real duties.

[JerseyScout]

There are the two new positions available too - Leave No Trace Trainer and Troop Webmaster - that might be available.

 

Den Chief is also an option, local Cub Scout dens always need Den Chiefs.

[ScoutNut]

Nope, as others have said, it is not common at all.

 

Does your Troop give some kind of reason for doing it this way? How old, what rank, are your sons?

 

The Troop should be teaching it's Scouts leadership. Holding a POR is one, important, way of doing that. When a Scout holds 3+ POR's at the same time, odds are, for most of these Scouts, none of them are being done well.

 

If it were me, I would seriously consider finding a new Troop for BOTH of my sons.

 

[SMT224]

This is really a strange situation. I've never heard of such a thing!

 

I can't imagine those five Scouts who have all the positions are able implement them correctly. Not to mention the unfairness of the situation for the other Scouts.

 

While I agree with those who suggest finding another Troop, I would first talk with the Scoutmaster about your concerns. If he reply's by saying that this is the way we do it in this Troop, you might suggest it's time to change. Print out this forum and show him that this is not the way other Troops do it and it does not fit well with the Scout Law. If he refuses to budge, then leave - but at least he know why.

 

[Eagle92]

One position is enough. Den Chief and another troop position is pushing it IMHO (this form someone who was both a DC and PL or ASPL during the same period)but doable. BUT 2 or more troop level positions?!?! No way this is not usual and sounds liek the adutls may be doign more than they should.

[Lisabob]

While I agree that it is quite unusual for a couple of boys to hold all the positions, I would want to ask a few other questions before deciding your son should transfer.

 

1. Other than this, how do your sons feel about the troop? If they are both happy, then leave them there. Advancement is only one part of scouting and not necessarily always going to take the upper hand. If one son is happy and the other isn't, consider moving the unhappy son, but I wouldn't do this until I was sure that the causes of unhappiness lay with the structure of the troop and could not be otherwise addressed, first. (And it is a logistical pain to have kids in two different troops - are you up for that?) If neither son is happy, look for a new scouting home.

 

2. Is your younger son really interested in holding a position at present? Maybe he isn't so keen on this and hasn't pushed to get one. Maybe that's why the positions are filled by a handful of boys - because no one else would do them. Consider whether the reason for your son's lack of position/advancement is the troop, or your son's level of interest. Going back to what I said, it isn't always bad for a kid to enjoy aspects of scouting besides advancement, but maybe he feels pressure from you or his brother or the troop to focus on advancement anyway, and this is a convenient excuse (I can't advance - they won't give me a position).

 

3. Consider having your son approach the SM to talk about some other ways of fulfilling the position requirement. Surely, there is SOMETHING left unclaimed by these other boys, even if it isn't a commonly used position (see the lists provided by other posters in this thread). If your son really wants it, he could approach the SM and volunteer for something. Have him make the case, rather than you making the case for him.

 

4. Please do not take this the wrong way - I don't know you or your son and I'm just brainstorming here - but could the SM have reason to think your son is not ready or capable of holding a position at the present time? I have known a few boys who had serious behavioral issues or discipline problems, who were turned down for positions as a result. Sometimes this was done to clearly let them know they needed to change their attitudes/behaviors if they expected to advance. I can easily imagine at least a few of these boys telling their parents "SM isn't letting me do anything!" as if the SM were playing favorites, when that wasn't the case at all.

 

Of course it could be that the SM really does play favorites in your sons' troop, I don't know. In the absence of other info though, all of the above are possibilities too.

[Scoutfish]

I have another thought too...

 

Could it be possible that most of the boys wanted to be SPL or PL , but since "somebody else" got it, they didn't want to be anyting else?

 

Know what I mean? "If I can't be what I want, I won't be anything!"

 

But then turn around and say: "There are no positions for me!"

 

Seen it too many times with kids: There can be 300 toys in a room, but if kid A can't play with the toy that kid B is currently playing with..kid A will cry to mom that kid B waon't share ANY TOYS!

 

Or for your older teens..when we have family get togethers, one particular niece will want to change the tv to MTV and blare it, if I say no to THAT, she crys that she just can't do ANYTHING AT ALL, I hate her, oppression and tyranny and nobody cares about her feelings , blah blah blah....! Then she sulk for two hours with the whole "Woe is me, the world personally hates just me..boo hoo hoo!"

 

 

Meanwhile in the scouting world, some kids are filling more than one position because nobody else will take it.

 

Granted, the Scoutmaster SHOULD stop this fast and put his foot down, but "should" and "do" are two seperate things!

[Stosh]

Our solution to POR's is: if one can't fulfill the responsibility it is given to someone else who can or is willing to try. We do not adhere to terms, i.e. 6 mo, etc. If a boy isn't doing the job he is replaced.

 

The only "multiple" position in our troop is that of JASM who is a jack-of-all-trades and fulfills various duties as needed. Right now our JASM is doing the NSP patrol leader, Instructor, and TG. As soon as he trains up someone to replace those duties he will move on to other assignments. He gets no "credit" for this position because he has already earned the rank of Eagle. JASM POR is for others in the troop, not for the scout wearing the patch.

 

In all POR's they are expected to actually function. If they do so for the 6 months necessary for advancement, they fulfill the requirement, otherwise the time he has functioned as expected, he gets partial credit for the requirement.

 

If a POR opportunity has been given, it is up to the scout to actually do the job. As librarian/historian, he is expected to justify his efforts before receiving credit. If he sat around with a patch on his shirt and has nothing to show for it, he does not get credit. If the historian produces a small album documenting the past 6 month's of the troop's activities, he will get full credit. Holding a POR means doing the work.

 

If a scout cannot advance because there are no available POR's, he can always do special projects for the SM to fulfill this requirement. I have had a boy research summer camps in the area, register the troop, line up the MB's, organize the logistics, get the boys there, follow up with MB records, and reregister the boys for next summer. There's no POR for that work, but the boy showed exceptional leadership on the project and got full POR credit.

 

Stosh

[emb021]

the holding of multiple positions should really only be tolerated in small organizations. If you have a large group, it shouldn't be necessary for someone to hold more then one position.

 

this troop needs to get rid of their policy of not allowing a position to be given to someone else. taking on a second (or third) position should only be allowed in an emergency, with the intention that someone else be found to fill the position.

 

 

[Eagledad]

Hi Jane

 

There is no easy way to answer the questions without knowing the program. Honestly, Five POS could easily run a troopof 25 scouts, so more information would help. But not allowing a scout to give up some responsibilities doesn't really make sense, so there is some questions.

 

What hasn't been mentioned, but was hinted, is how agressive the less agressive scout really is. Its always difficult to understand if a parent is pushing harder than the the program is designed, or just concerned with a program that is not giving each scout a fair chance. Assuming your a mother concerned with the program, Lisabob has some really good advice.

 

Also, as a SM, I let the scouts determine POS that need to be filled and who needs to fill them. Scouts need to earn the position, not get it because it is their turn to advance. That being said, I alway found responsibilities for any scout who was looking for some experience and time to prove himself. If the less agressive son really wants some responsibility, he needs to watch for opportunities like leading the fund rasier, lead the troops monthly service project or help plan and lead the next Court of Honor. These kinds of jobs don't require a lot of time and skill, but it gives the scout some practice and exposure so the other scouts can see him at work.

 

If this is to some degree an effort of helping your son advance, you may not find a troop program to your sons satisfaction.

 

Work with your son to talk with the SM and see where that goes. I think that converstaion will answer most of your questions.

 

Good luck to your and your sons.

 

Barry

[Beavah]

Yah, I think 5 positions is just fine for a troop of 25. Three PLs, an SPL and a QM.

 

So no, I don't think what your troop is doin' is at all unusual or out of line. They are not required to staff other positions if they aren't needed. The leadership boys just handle those "positions" as part of their job.

 

Now, it is unusual as others have suggested to give 'em multiple patches. But I don't think that's quite what you're talkin' about.

 

Some troops will use the full list of positions to give as many lads as possible the advancement requirement. I don't think that does the boys or the program any favors. Usually in such troops many of those positions do not require much (any!) real effort or responsibility, so the boy doesn't get the growth and benefit he would if he held a substantive position. Now, some families seem to like that kind of advancement mill or "social promotion" environment, eh? If yeh think that would better meet your families needs and desires, makin' a change to a unit like that might be a better fit.

 

Otherwise, I'd say let your younger son have fun in the troop and find his footing. Positions will open up for him as he gets older and his confidence and comfort with his peers improves. There's a natural flow to these things in Scoutin', and boys tend to find themselves in positions at just the time they are really ready for 'em.

 

Patience, mom. Don't be comparing your two sons too much, eh? They're different souls, and will take different paths through life.

 

Beavah

 

[Scoutfish]

Beavah, I may be wrong, but it sounds like one of her sons as well as 4 other Scouts are serving in multiple POR's at the same time. meanwhile, there are several scouts who are not able to serve any POR because the others have already taken the positions.

 

Might be ( but not specifically saying these exact particular positions) that The SPL, PL, ASPL and DC could be the same scout.