Boy led troop issues

[JerseyScout 10]

Background: I've been defacto running my troop for a year and a half (I will get officially bumped to Scoutmaster at the end of the month), and made some major changes in that time, empasizing patrol method and taking the adult leaders almost entirely out of the affairs of the boys. End Background.

 

My Committee Chair (who is also my roommate, who was also a few years behind me in Scouts) just had it out over "boy-led troop" for the fifth or sixth time. He states that it isn't that the troop isn't working (it is, far better than it has in years), he just feels that it could run better, and that we have more to offer (such as showing a new kid how to cook a pancake if he asks for help). My response was that it is no longer our time or our job to offer, we had our days in Scouts, its now our job to say 'ask your patrol leader" or, if the kid is really freaking out and you are feeling extra nice, to pull an older Scout (perhaps from the patrol next door who is also cooking breakfast) and direct new kid to that Scout (the other jobs include driving the cars and filling out the permits). Its about teaching the patrol leader to delegate responsibility and making sure his bases are covered, not about "good pancakes" versus "slightly charred" pancakes.

 

To me, boy-led-troop was best defined by the ASM who trained me to take his spot six years ago- "keep them (pointing to the parents) away from them (pointing to the kids). They can figure it out". The obvious exception is if a Scout is placed in physical danger (not using an ax correctly, playing with gas, or something along those lines) or something far outside the rhelm of acceptable (bullying, dropping swear words in front of 11 year olds), that's what I do, I don't baby them.

 

I was critiqued tonight because some trips "there isn't enough food some trips", and we should be going through the planning stage with them. My first response is, "has anyone starved" (no). Has anyone been really hungry (well I was, which means that the kids probably were too). My next response was "are there Scouts in this troop who know how to plan a menu" (yes). Then it is their job to make sure the menu and shopping list is reviewed, especially as they are the SPL, ASPL, and PLs. My other response was "has it happened every trip?" (no, but it happened in May). "Has it really happened since?"(Not really, although we could have had more food at lunch the November trip) The follow up was "yea, but they make the same things every trip". My response was, "that's their choice. Break it down with the 'bar' after the trip if you are worried about it, or offer a prize that the adults will do KP for the patrol that cooks the best dinner next trip".

 

I was critiqued because I let the Scouts leave a stove behind in the shed because the patrol leader didn't put the time in to check his box before the trip (he was asked once if his patrol box was ready, he said "yea, yea" while hanging with his buddies, so I let it go). The one patrol had to wait and borrow the other patrols gear. One of the parents had pointed out to me that there was a stove sitting out, and was upset (apparently complaining to the Committe Chair) when I said "that's for them to figure out, they'll learn". Despite complaints from adults, I noticed the Scouts brought extra stoves on this trip.

 

To me, boy-led troop means that you let them plan and do their thing (even if it flops horribly), then you break it down with them afterwards by asking "What went well?" and "What could have gone better?" You get ideas for how to fix things from them, then throw out a hint of a suggestion for them to discuss if there might be a better way in your mind. Maybe next time you say, "remember last we didn't..., make sure this time," but you don't insert yourself into the planning process if it is something the boys have dealt with before (obviously you are more involved if its something completely new). To me, boy led troop means you should not be directing or discussing how to do something or what to do for anyone below the level of Patrol Leader (and most of the time, Senior Patrol Leader). It means pointing out something to a patrol leader rather than handling it yourself, and it means staying out of the way. It means letting kids screw up and letting things fail, then helping the kids take them apart afterwards to figure out what went wrong. It means biting your tounge 95% of the time.

 

I've been catching flak from some of the established leaders and from the newer parents (I amped up recruiting efforts and have brought in 16 new Scouts in the last six months, we haven't had that many new Scouts in the last 5 years put together), and I keep hearing "my Scoutmaster was more hands on when I was in my troop" or "we had a core of leaders that really taught us how to do a lot of things". I did the Scoutmaster specific training, and I felt that I was pretty well in line with that, or if anything, still keeping too much resonsibility from the boys. No one is saying things are going badly, everyone thinks they are going really well, but still "it could be more efficient".

 

I guess my question is, am I way out of line or way off on this? What is a boy-led troop? Do I have one (or at least am I on my way to having one)? What does your boy led troop look like? Is this flak normal?

 

I'm not really planning on changing anything, despite what I get from the adults, I've only heard grumbling from two Scouts.

 

If you hear of one Boy Scout leader murdering another in Jersey tonight, it was nice talking to you all!

[Eagle732 27]

Are you out of line?

No. They way I handle the criticism is to remind the committee that they can elect a new SM each December according to our bylaws. In other words if you don't like the job I'm doing find someone else to do it! Seems like you're doing well especially with recruiting.

 

What is a boy led troop?

You'll get lots of opinions on this. It varies and depends on the currently elected leaders and their capabilities. Sounds like you are certainly boy led. My opinion; never do for a boy what he can do for himself. Let them lead as much as possible. There is a difference however between the "Boy Run Troop" and the boy run into the ground troop!

Is this flak normal? Yes! I wish I could let our troop be more boy led but I take too much heat from the COR if things get too out of hand. When the parents start complaining and threatening to take there sons elsewhere that's when you know you're getting close to being boy led.

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

Jersey,

Keep it up and don't let them get you down. A few ideas to help the situation.

 

1) Ask those who are complaining if theyhave been through any Boy Scout Leader Training, i.e. Fast Start, SM Specific, Troop Committee training, etc. Advise them that your format is what BSA promotes in it's literature, and that they can take a good bit of it online if they are interested in seeing what a SM's job truly entails.

 

2)Ask those parents if they ever made mistakes that they learned from growing up. Then ask those with previosu BS expereince what mistakes they made with their patrol and how did they handle it. Also ask if they repeated it again?

 

3) Remind the parents that this is the opportunities for the young men to do things for themselves, make mistakes, and leanr from both success and failure. USe the old Edison quote about what to use as filament in a lightbulb. In reference to the patrol that left the stove behind, ask the committe dothey think it will happen again or did the patrol, and the other patrols

[Oak Tree 15]

From what you've posted here, it doesn't appear that you are at all out of line. Learning by doing, trial and error, it can work better than any other method. I had a Scout the other day ensuring that his patrol box had tongs after trying to cook everything with a skewer on the last camping trip. Nothing I could have said would have produced the same motivation.

 

Finding the line between boy-run and boy-run-into-the-ground can be an art form. I tend not to let things "flop horribly". When I watch the boys, I try to see if the error is something that they can learn from, and where "the punishment fits the crime", as it were. I would not, for example, let 10 adults drive two hours in the wrong direction because a Scout sends out the wrong name of a park. I also tend not to allow for disastrous organizational failures, where one Scout's inability to plan things can ruin things for everyone else, especially if it doesn't seem like there's going to be appropriate learning.

 

The level can be different for everyone, though. You need to have it at a level that you feel comfortable. Is it normal to get flak from parents? Yes and no. You probably can't get rid of it all, but you can do a lot to build bridges with the other leaders and the parents. I estimate that I spend at least 50% of my time with the adults, talking to them about how the troop runs, sharing a common vision, sending out emails, etc. You can certainly say "I'm the Scoutmaster, so we do it my way. If you don't like it, find another Scoutmaster." That is not, in my experience, a very effective way to lead a group of parents and adult volunteers. It will almost guarantee that you'll get more flak from the parents.

 

So yes, your troop operation sounds fine. Being efficient is not one of the goals of a troop. And change is often hard for people. You're going to want to have allies in this - get as many adults on board as you can.

[John-in-KC 311]

My only comment is if food and going hungry are issues, then maybe SPL needs to be encouraged to move menu deadlines earlier in the process, with a quick PLC after the menu deadline to review menus for nutritional sufficiency. (in other words, no comments about "that's not how I would have done that" ... but comments "hey, you're shy on fruits and veggies here" or "are you sure this is enough calories to get your patrol through the day?"

 

Mind, this is other youth saying this... SPL, ASPL, QM, and PLs... not the adults.

[scoutldr 738]

Sounds like your scouts are making mistakes...and learning from them. Good job!

[Stosh 3452]

Jersey,

 

I see you doing it totally correct. Congratulations!

 

It takes time and patience to pull off a good boy-led program. There's a lot of real growth that occurs during that long learning curve. Once the boys realize no adult is going to step in and start laying down demands, they will pick up the slack.

 

I've been working on this boy-led thingy for two years now and am just starting to get a faint glimpse of success off on the far horizon.

 

Night before last there was a heated discussion between one of the parents and one of my PL's. (Remember, I'm the one that advocates the highest ranking officer in the troop is the PL.) It didn't look good and wasn't pleasant for anyone involved. I was watching from the sidelines and went over to another parent who was within earshot of the discussion (also a committee member) and asked if this was something I should get involved in and she said, no, the PL is doing a very good job of handling the situation.

 

I did a follow-up review with the PL after the meeting and he was upset but determined to resolve the problem and would be making more phone calls this week to straighten out the situation and calm the tension that was caused. I asked him if there was anything I could do to help, he said, no, it's an issue that he needs to get to the bottom of.

 

Of course I'll keep an eye on the situation, but I'm not planning on jumping in and rescuing this boy any time soon.

 

He did ask me if this was the kind of hassles that SM's and ASM's have to handle all the time? (He's turning 18 in a couple of months and will be signing on as a ASM right away.) I said, not necessarily, especially if the troop has good PL's that can really take the reins and lead.

 

Stosh

[JerseyScout 10]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Overall, the troop is doing excellent and I haven't heard a single complaint from the Scouts themselves about NOT having adults help out/hover (whichever view you take on the action).

 

Eagle732 ~ "When the parents start complaining and threatening to take there sons elsewhere that's when you know you're getting close to being boy led." I haven't had any of that yet, I guess I'd better keep pushing

 

Eagle92 ~ I think I am going to try your "there is training and literature available" route for my CC next time our lively debate starts up again (maybe even look up some articles to give him). I keep trying to give him ways that he can funnel what he wants to do to make it a "boy led" way (for example, he wants to show the kids how to cook something different for dinner because dinner is getting boring on trips. I suggested that, instead, he tell the patrols that whoever cooks the best dinner next trip will have the adults will do their KP, with bonus points given for trying something new), but I'm mostly running into walls. We aren't operating on the same wavelength, because we haven't been exposed to the same stuff.

 

John ~ That's an excellent suggestion. Our next overnighter is the Klondike, so I'll ask the PLC to consider having their menus prepared a week earlier than usual so that there is less of a chance of things being overlooked in the rush to prepare for the trip. I'm not quite sure why this came up at this point, as hunger hasn't really been much of an issue this year (our Quartermasters were a nightmare last year. The boys took steps to change that this year - aka you can't be Quartermaster unless you actually attend trips - which seem to be working much better).

 

Oak Tree ~ Thanks for the advice.

[Eagle92 110]

One thing that may help in the food department is some camping cook books. They add variety to the meals, and usually have the right size protions for growing, hungry, Scouts. And I say camping cook books because they usually have the poritons right.

 

One thing I was taught is that whatever portion size the directions call for in a normal cookbook or recipe, you usually need to double on campouts, i.e. if the recipe says it's good for 8, then it's only good for 4 Scouts. Scouts are active, are burning more calores than someone sitting behind a desk, and need the extra food.

 

A few things I have seen include the following

 

1) Troop and Council cookbooks. Yep some troops come up with their own cookbooks, and they are usually designed for camping. My council growing up also had it's own cookbook for the BA 22 course that included all the recipes for our meals that week, and then some. If the wife hasn't appropriated it to her cook book collection, then It's with my stuff in the closet. Unfortunately I have not cooked in a long time as I'm either a guest of a unit, or the Pack has designated cooks.

 

2)Troop menues. When cost is a factor, I've seen some troops have a "menu competition" to create the best menu for the trip. Essentially every patrol submits their proposals for the trip tothe PLC. PLC then votes on the best meals, and the PLC makes the menu. Then the service patrol does the shopping for the troop, usually at the local Sam's Club. Again this is when cost is a factor as buying in bulk is cheaper, BUT it does take a little away from the patrol method.

 

Hope this helps.

 

[Eagle92 110]

Oh and I can't beleive I left this one out, Interpatrol cooking competitions. Patrols plan for the patrol members plus 2, and the older scouts or adults "judge" the meals based upon the sampling. Depending upon the number of judges and patrols, you may not need to feed the judges. Great way for a Leadership Corps to get out of cooking and cleaning up, especially when they are preparing for events

[Stosh 3452]

According to modern science it takes on average:

 

3 minutes lack of air to die.

 

3 days lack of water to die.

 

30 days lack of food to die.

 

On our last campout one of my patrols (5 boys, the older boy patrol) had a TOTAL of $16 for food for the whole weekend. They thought it would be easier not to cook. I'm sure they were really hungry come Sunday morning when the NSP was having dutch oven French toast and they were eating their granola bars.

 

We all live by the choices we make. No, we as adults do not "check up on the boys". Bon apetite!

 

Stosh

[SR540Beaver 116]

JerseyScout - "I keep trying to give him ways that he can funnel what he wants to do to make it a "boy led" way (for example, he wants to show the kids how to cook something different for dinner because dinner is getting boring on trips. I suggested that, instead, he tell the patrols that whoever cooks the best dinner next trip will have the adults will do their KP, with bonus points given for trying something new), but I'm mostly running into walls. We aren't operating on the same wavelength, because we haven't been exposed to the same stuff."

 

Try this. When the boys settle into a rut, give them a "requirement" that they have to try a recipe they've never cooked before. Or that Saturday breakfast or dinner for all patrols is a Dutch Oven dinner. Or that they have to try a cooking method they've never used. Even with a "requirement" thrown in, it is still boy led from the aspect that they have to come up with a menu, ingredients and method. This satisfies the adults who want to interfere, yet keeps it boy led too.

 

I always come down on the side of boy led......with the realization that it sometimes needs to be tempered with a minimum of adult direction to keep things reasonable and on track. An example is from a troop I used to serve. The boys started getting lazy and would do ramen noodles for lunch. Then it became lunch and dinner. Then it became every meal. Then boiling water became too much trouble and they ate the noodles dry out of the package. That is "boy led" taken too far. The word came down from on high that the boys were setting a bad example for the younger scouts and ramen noodles would only be allowed occasionally with SM approval. They needed to start employing the skills they had learned and pass them on.

 

I realize you don't have this problem. But to "appease" the grumblers, throw a challenge at the boys from time to time to change things up and expand their horizons. It keeps the adults happy and gives the boys an opportunity to spread their boy led wings.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, there are other subtle things yeh can do, eh?

 

I think it's just fine if one adult shows one Patrol Leader or older boy a new cooking technique. Especially if the boy asks! Yeh might even invite a lad occasionally to help prepare an adult meal as sous-chef. Then that boy takes it and tries it and teaches it to others and da neighboring patrol starts lookin' over his shoulder and all that.

 

Key is to work through your junior leaders.

 

Biggest point, though, is that we don't want boys (just) to know how to make a good pancake, eh? We want 'em to know how to learn and figure out how to do things like cook a good pancake. It's that knowing how to learn something, knowing how to figure it out on your own that is the really important skill that boys get in Scoutin'.

 

I think you're doin' just fine. As long as da CC keeps challengin' your thinking but not interferin', that's also a good thing. Keeps yeh honest and keeps your brain workin' on how to do it better while keepin' it boy-led. Stay friends with the man and your troop will continue to do good things.

 

Beavah

 

P.S. One added point on Eagle92's suggestion - if yeh use cookbooks, yeh actually do often have to teach the boys how to read and follow a cookbook recipe. It isn't an automatic thing - either the readin' skills or the following that kind of direction.

[Twocubdad 665]

I could probably write a book on this. Trying to change a troop from adult run and/or boy-led-into-a-ditch is what I've been doing for the past six years. I figure I'm about half way through the process. So here are a few thought. Somewhat disjointed and maybe a little self-contradictory in places......

 

Eagle732 wrote: "When the parents start complaining and threatening to take there sons elsewhere that's when you know you're getting close to being boy led."

 

That sounds to me like looking for a gas leak by waving a lit match over the gas pipe. Effective, but a dangerous. How effective is your program if you're running Scouts off?

A troop can't sustain a consistent net loss of boys over time. Losses because the program is too wimpy or too tough are still losses. You need to make sure your program is meeting the needs of your Scouts and is supported by your leadership team.

 

That said, you didn't give us enough info about your troop to know of the complainers are a significant number or not. A troop with 40 Scouts and four are unhappy is one matter, but a troop of 8 with four Scouts threatening to leave is a different issue.

 

Generally, losing a few boys here and there doesn't scare me a bit. It happens all the time. This fall we lost a boy and a very dedicated ASM because the son just wasn't a good fit for our troop. The dad argued very persuasively that we needed to be doing things differently. But I was looking at 40 kids who were enjoying the program and thriving and one who wasn't. DUH! We gain more Scouts who like our program than those who transfer out. Last week we had two boys visit from other troops and one committed to join.

 

Neither do we have much info on the experience and skill levels in your troop. Do you have boys available who can teach the skills? If so, your problem may be one of organization and/or training. If you don't have the experienced Scouts, it is perfectly acceptable for the adults to step in and teach the skills. "Youth Leadership" is an important method of Scouting, but so is "Adult Association."

 

The troop has an obligation to teach the basic skills to the boys, whether its planning, organization, leadership or how to cook a pancake. Preferably, the instruction comes from older boys, but there needs to be instruction. Remember the seven parts of a troop meeting? Instruction Time is one of the biggies. We've had sessions in the troop during which the older guys literally teach how to cook pancakes -- the proper consistency for the batter, that you need a low heat, how to judge the bubbles to know when to flip the pancake, etc. Armed with that knowledge, then the boys are let loose to succeed or fail on their own.

 

We need to set our boys up for success. That's not the same as guaranteeing success. Give them the proper tools for the job -- both skills and supplies -- then turn them loose.

 

Another concept to consider is "controlled failure." Both words are important parts of the concept. When a program or activity is circling the bowl, you need to look at more than just safety. How will one Scout's failure affect the rest of the troop? Are the other Scouts still benefitting from a solid troop program or has the failure compromised the troop's ability to deliver to the other boys? Consider where the failure is occurring and what learning is likely to come from it. A patrol forgetting its stove and spending the weekend re-learning to cook over an open fire is a both a shared failure (although there is sure to be finger-pointing) and a terrific learning experience for the whole patrol. A good Scoutmaster will just step back and smile.

 

But say the SPL and ASLP drop the ball in making arrangements for an outing or campout to the point the activity is cancelled. How does that effect the rank-and-file Scouts? How did they fail? What will they learn on a campout which never takes place? A good Scoutmaster will work with the SPL and ASPL to rescue the outing AND make sure the junior leaders understand and learn from the mistakes they made in planning. (And please don't tell me the younger kids learned to vote for better leaders. That doesn't work any better in a troop than it does in national elections.)

 

Are the other leaders in your troop trained? Do they understand the program? If so, really listen to what they are telling you. They are on the ground and understand the situation in your troop. Honestly evaluate what they're telling you. We've all had clueless parents complain that their son isn't getting the five-star service he's accustomed to at home. But if you have trained, experienced leaders in the troop who "get it" you need to consider their input. Part of your job is as leader of the leaders. You need to integrate those people into the decision making and build your team -- exactly what we're asking the patrol leaders to do.

 

Finally, one session of Wood Badge training is "Managing Change." For me, that session alone was worth going through the course. The key point is this: when you are trying to effect a change in an organization, you as a leader must have a clear vision for where you want the organization to go, and you must have the conviction to stick with that vision. Temper your vision with a realistic assesment of what the organization can do. Get the input from the other leaders and perhaps reconsider the time it will take to implement your vision. Get the others to buy into your vision, but be prepared for fallout. You may loose some Scouts and some good leaders aong the way. In short, make sure you are doing the right thing and stick to it!

 

Your job then becomes managing progress toward the goal. A friend with 40 years experience as Scoutmaster once told me his most important job is to constantly assess the ability of his boys. Every six months you have to adjust the program to fit the abilities and interests of a new PLC. Every year you have to figure out how to integrate a new crop of Scouts and parents/leaders into the program (although I've learned that new Scouts provide your best opportunities to make big changes). Progress toward the goal will come in fits and spurts. There will be setbacks. (My second year my SPL was bipolar with serious ADD issues and was of the opinion that I had "ruined his troop." We didn't make much progress that term.) Don't let the setbacks deter you from the vision.

 

Good luck with it. Sounds like you have the enthusiasm and vision you need. The rest will come.

[GKlose 24]

Hey JerseyScout -- I'll second the competition idea --

 

I came into a troop that is pretty much adult led. For weekend outings, one of the adults has done all shopping and cooking for the small handful of scouts that would show up (they weren't newbie scouts, either).

 

The SM started off with an event on one outing. He told the "patrols" (which on this particular outing was actually small 3 or 4 scout "cooking groups") that they were going to get two chickens to prepare any way they liked. They took care of bringing everything else they needed.

 

I figured the SM would like a new idea, so for another outing I suggested that he give every patrol/"cooking group" a "mystery box" and then also give them some sort of mystery protein. I think the protein might have been chicken again, because I know one patrol did fried chicken in a dutch oven (I wasn't on the outing). The leftover mystery box items have become a small stash of non-perishables in the troop trailer. A couple of scouts specifically mentioned they loved the mystery box idea and want to do it on every outing now.

 

Someone else here on this forum talked about a "Cast Iron Chef" competition (dutch ovens, for example, to prepare everything). Someone else suggested a mystery box item of Spam, which is think is a wonderfully wicked (as they say up here in the northeast) idea that I'm going to borrow. :-)

 

My master plan is that I'm going to push (the other adults) for the mystery box to become a mystery envelope (of a set amount of cash) and then a trip to a nearby market. At that point, there is virtually no difference between what we are doing and what they are supposed to be doing, which is planning their own menu.

 

Guy