How to avoid "Eagle Mills"

[ManassasEagle 10]

I've got a den of first year Webelos so we'll be starting to visit Boy Scout troops this spring/summer/fall. Does anybody have any tips and/or guidelines on how to identify those troops that are just "Eagle Mills"? Any ideas on what could be done to gently redirect the problem troops?

[VAordeal 10]

Hello fellow Virginian! I think one helpful way to identify a troop as an "Eagle Mill" is to look around the room and first look for physical signs. Is there a plack (spelling?) honoring the troop's eagles? If so, are there many names all from around the same time period? (e.g- John Smith 2001, Alex Ward 2001, Frank Kennedy 2001, Will Dawson 2001) That might be one indication. also check the mood of the scouts. Are they into it and having fun or do they seem to be working just for MBs? since we are in a close distance to each other i wont give my troop's name but me being a 14 year old Star scout feel that my troop is kind of 50/50. We make many young eagles and stuff can get rushed from time to time. So when looking for a troop, mood and moral shows all in my opinion. Good luck finding a good troop. (i mean this in an encouraging way)

[EagleInKY 14]

Manassas, I don't know whether there is any litmus test for it. You probably will be able to sense it. Some are blatently obvious. They're proud of the fact. And, since it sounds appealing to Cub Scout parents, they do a good job of recruiting up from packs.

 

There are exceptions to each one of these, so I expect some rebuttal.

 

- VA's Eagle Plaque (plack???) could be a sign. But it could also just be an indicator of a very good program that has a high retention rate.

 

- Large troops around here are often Eagle Mills. But again, it could also be a sign of a strong program.

 

- If you visit a troop meeting and you ask what they're doing tonight and they answer "down here they're doing Mammal Study, down that hall you will find Cit in the Community and over there is Environmental Science".... you have probably found an Eagle Mill. However, many good troops occasionally offer some MB work time in troop meetings. So that's not a gaurantee either. Ask them if this is typical.

 

- If it appears to be very adult-run, it's possibly an Eagle Mill.

 

- If they key on advancement, quote Eagle statistics and similar info, then they may be an Eagle Mill.

 

 

Good question. I'll thin about it some more.

[Trevorum 24]

I think you should make a distinction between so-called "Eagle mills" and troops that have a long history of providing an excellent Scouting program (which may result in many scouts earning Eagle). Advancement is only ONE of the BSA methods. I recommend looking for signs of a healthy program that integrates all 8 methods.

 

When visiting troop meetings (rather than just counting eagles), look for signs of a boy-led unit. Do scouts run the meeting, or adults? Does the SM sit up front or in back?

 

Ask about patrols. Do they camp and cook together? Do they have patrol hikes and activities? How often does the troop hold JLT? How often are PLC's? Who decides on the next years activities?

 

Ask about the outdoor activities. Do they have monthly campouts? Do they camp regardless of the weather? Does the troop attend Summer camp every year? Is there sufficient variety in the activity schedule to keep the boys interested?

[SemperParatus 1]

I'll admit that I never liked that 'Eagle Mill' term. I am of the opinion that if you run a hugely active program, focused on strong leadership development and participation, and provide individualized attention to each scout, that strong advancement results will naturally follow. Just because a unit produces a number of Eagle scouts either cumulatively or during a short period of time, is not necessarily an indication that it is pushing boys to and through Eagle. It many cases, the number and frequency of Eagle scouts is the result of a super-charged troop that attempts to be outstanding in every area of scouting.

 

Having said that, you will find troops that focus (almost exclusively) on advancement. They are identified by frequent and ongoing merit badge class offerings, a first class-first year program that is completely geared toward sign-off rather than skill development and fun, and an adult leadership that appears to always be bragging about how many Eagles they have 'produced'.

 

It can be hard to identify an 'advancement mill' from just one or two visits. But there are a few questions or bits of information that may be helpful.

 

1. Ask about the troop meeting plans for the next three months? Are they all about merit badge classes?

 

2. If the troop has a First Year-First Class Program, speak with the ASM in charge to find out the philosophy - are they demonstrating, practicing, reviewing and testing on different days or is everything relating to a requirement from instruction to sign-off done during one troop meeting? What is the process for determining some level of skill proficiency? Does the program support things other than meeting advancement requirements? Observe the group - are they having fun? Are the boys engaged in a creative and interesting manner?

 

3. Ask about the last three/four Eagle projects that the scouts performed looking for some detail as to whether these projects were of some significance or 'gimmes'. If all the projects sound pretty much the same, done for the same organization (e.g., CO) and sound awfully simple then there is a chance that the unit leadership is setting the stage for high-Eagle output rather than scout development.

 

4. If you could get a copy of the roster with ranks, it may be enlightening. If all (or a very large majority) of the third year scouts are Life, the second year scouts are Star, and the first year scouts First Class - then you may be looking at a situation where rank is being pushed based on tenure. In other words, advancement correlates with time. In a balanced troop, you will most likely find different ranks at different age levels, as scouts pursue advancement on an individual basis rather than on a group basis driven largely by the adult leadership.

 

5. Look for a troop with a strong Patrol Leaders Council. The senior scouts in a leadership position will look for ways to make the troop fun and interesting - and advancement work is not necessarily the path for that. A weak PLC will easily settle for working on a merit badge or advancement requirement as a group. Also, a strong and active PLC is indication that leadership is being taken seriously, rather than just another easy sign-off.

 

As far as nudging them into a new direction...that takes lots of time, patience and initiatives on many fronts to achieve a different mindset. It starts with the SM and PLC being challenged to expand their horizons and see the the scouting program from the much broader perspective. A couple of really cool trips that offer no advancement work and tie up several meetings for advance planning can help to break old habits, without folks realizing it.

 

 

[dan 10]

There are so many other questions than is the troop a Eagle Mill or not.

It goes so much deeper than does the troop work on Merit Badges for most of the meeting or most meetings. But if they did I would look for another troop.

 

My question to the troop would be do you follow the AIMS and Methods of the BSA?

 

Ideals

Are the scouts being scoutlike at meetings?

 

Patrols

Do patrols choice its members? Is the PL in charge of his patrol?

Does every patrol member have a position of responsibility? Cheer master, Grub Master, etc.?

 

Outdoor Programs

Do you go camping once a month? Do you have High Adventure tripS every year? Do you do service projects? How often?

 

Advancement

FCFY? Retention rate, after 1st year? 2nd? 3rd? 4th?

 

Personal Growth

Are the scouts responsible for his Position of Responsibility? Are they coached and given help?

 

Leadership Development

Is the troop boy run? Are they coached and given help?

Does the PLC create an agenda for meetings and campouts?

Does the scouts vote for the SPL? Does the SPL pick his team?

 

Uniform

?Do I dare go here?

Well certainly! If the leaders and most scouts are not in FULL uniform, most likely the troop is willing to ignore the method of uniform, they will have no problem changing other methods.

 

[anarchist 10]

ManassasEagle,

Howdy fellow Scouter from the 'Yankee' side of the Old Dominion!

 

Depending on the amount of travel you can handle, there are many good troops in the battlefield city. Call the Bull Run District for a list or visit their web site...Hit their Roundtable (Second Tuesday night of each month, still at O-P high School -I think)and introduce yourself to the Scouters on the "Boy Scout side of things"...let them know you are looking for a troop and I'll bet you get a lot of invites...heck, one of our Scouters might even introduce themselves...

 

"Redirecting gently" just doesn't work...until the scout families and scouts have their Eagles in hand it continues...and then some! You either need to roll up both sleeves and dive in or look elsewhere.

 

Your boys will be your best guide...if you have more than a passing "hi how are ya" with the Boy Scout units...(please don't do just one night per troop) they will sense where the excitement is, and where the 'warmth' is... Most likely, they will gravitate to the 'normal feeder troop' for your pack (where their older friends and sibs have gone for years) It is usually close by...another plus to the parents.

 

The program offering is best looked at in multiple years; ask to see the last couple of annual calendars....does the program appear steady, growing, expanding???

 

Ask to join in or camp next to them on a campout next spring/fall or at least be able to visit for the day. If they spend a great deal of time doing merit badges (look at the PLC meeting Plans) you might be in a mill.

 

Ask the Scout Master(s) to send a patrol to do skills classes or demonstrations for your pack or den...ask for permission to visit the troop several times next year and go as observers not participants. Move around area to area during the meeting ....see what's going on, don't ask to be entertained... tell the SM upfront you want to scope it out and you might only be there for half the meeting...that said your guys need to be on their best behavior and watch whats going on...it can be very enlightening...

 

AND BE SURE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE WEBELOS WOODSMOKE WEEKEND!

good hunting

anarchist

 

 

[scoutingagain 20]

Like others have said, I think you'll "sense" if you've run into an Eagle mill or not.

 

During your visit is the emphasis on:

 

The outdoor program, where the troop goes camping, the types of camping trips they go on, personal and leadership development, boy leadership, skills learned, community service, summer camp, etc?

 

Or do they talk about the number of Eagle scouts the troop produces? Merit badges they work on? How fast your Webelos will advance?

 

Just some thoughts. Good luck.

 

 

SA

[dsteele 20]

Ask all the questions of the potential troop that you want to, take a look at their calendar and examine all the variables presented here.

 

But please, please, for the boys' sake, don't ever forget who makes the decision of which troop to join and who has to live with the results.

 

It isn't you.

 

It's the Scout.

 

He may be only 11 years old, but he is an accomplished consumer. He will make his choice. Force his hand and we may lose him altogether.

 

Unc.

[EagleInKY 14]

Unc - While I agree with you, I also believe the adult needs to have some influence in on the decision. These Eagle Mills can look great to a Webelos. They don't understand boy-leadership or the methods of scouting. Hopefully, the adults are more likely to catch this and can coach the boys into making a better choice.

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

Sensing an Eagle mill is not the term I would use. It is more like a smack in the face. The troop meeting is Adult run. Merit Badge classes make up most of the meeting. One adult gives the announcements. One adult makes sure the computer program for advancements are updated. Anxious parents are on the sidelines making sure their son is doing what he is supposed to be doing, which means MB work. The (MB) program has been planned by a well meaning SM with the aid of the computer guys program to highlight which badge comes next. The summer camp has been chosen by the well meaning SM based on the missing MBs. The committee doesnt exist or is only on paper. The well meaning SM keeps the Troop's checkbook in his hip pocket. The well meaning SM occasionally tells the anxious parents about what he has planned for the next campout. The well meaning SM does not have a yearly plan but decides month to month what his Troop will be doing. Since this is from actual experience and none of it is an exaggeration, when you see it for yourself, you will instantly understand that it has nothing to do with subtlety.

FB(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[dsteele 20]

My Kentucky Eagle Friend,

 

I don't disagree that the adult needs to be involved in the coaching. However, I believe that the coaching from the adult needs to be a brief introduction of his/her opinion.

 

After that, "use the force, Luke." comes into play. The young man must choose for himself. His own gut is sufficiently devloped to tell him whether the troop is a good fit or not. If not, if he doesn't quit the program, he can probably scrape up the $1.00 to transfer to a different troop . . .

 

Unc.

[Eamonn 61]

Who was the Comedian that did the you might be a redneck thing? Jeff Fox something or another??

We have two Eagle Mills in the District. One goes as far as having printed on the back of their troop ball-cap "Where Eagles Fly" The SM has 3EAGLES on his license plate.

While there are many Troops that do offer an outstanding program. The national average for Scouts reaching the rank of Eagle Scout is a little under 5%. When you run into a troop that has 75% you have either ran into a very exceptional troop or something isn't right.

Just about every Scout that I have ever met at an Eagle Scout BOR, has a different reason for having made reaching the rank of Eagle his goal. You might want to talk to the Scouts that are Eagle Scouts and ask them what made them want to make Eagle Scout a goal?

You might want to ask how many MB'S each Scout earned last year at summer camp. Most Scouts don't get above 5, one of our mills had an average of eleven??? per boy.

Eamonn.

[Hunt 11]

I've always wondered about that statistic that only 5% of Scouts reach Eagle. I'm sure it's true, but isn't it mainly true because so many boys leave Scouting before aging out? I wonder what percent of boys who are still in a troop at age 18 are Eagles--I bet it's much, much higher. To make this relevant to this thread, a troop with really good retention might produce a lot of Eagles, without being a mill at all.

[NIscouter 10]

This discussion really ties together what a good troop may be doing. I plan on bringing up some of the items noted here to my troop. I would note one thing - if a troop has a weak or indifferent SPL elected, it is very difficult for the SM and ASMs not to get involved at some level to keep the meetings going. I think a troop is very fluid entity, and a change in leadership (both adult and scout)can change the way a troop is run virtually overnight. The challange appears to be recognizing this change and helping the boys find a way back to running the troop.