Shooting Sports programs changes coming 9/1/24 - including name change Range and Target Activities

[qwazse 4375]

On 5/14/2024 at 12:02 PM, Tron said:

…
I don't think this is that big of a deal. Sure name change, but, we still have shooting sports. We're a very broad topic youth organization, not a shooting sports organization. The reduction in options is not that big of a deal, if a scout really likes shooting, and wants to get into different styles, different calibers, super serious with reloading etc ... why can't they go shoot clays on Tuesday night at their gun club, and roll into their troop meetings on Wednesday at the local church? 

You are not thinking like many young teens who now have jobs, the earnings from which are expected to pay for activities. If their patrols can’t go shooting at their trained ASM/RSO’s club every month, they can spend their dimes joining the club as junior members from what they save on Scouting America registration fees.

You might say only a small number of COs and families will let their scouts be so reactionary … just like families who react to the removal of dodge ball, or the removal of unisex program, …

It becomes a decline by a thousand cuts.

If a troop wants to maintain routine range time it could result in merely exchanging hazards For us the nearest commercial range is at least a half hour drive away (and I think this applies to most scouts) … twice as far as the nearest game lands or gun club, we double the risk of traffic accidents.

Edited May 15 by qwazse

[InquisitiveScouter 1691]

14 hours ago, qwazse said:

You are not thinking like many young teens who now have jobs, the earnings from which are expected to pay for activities. If their patrols can’t go shooting at their trained ASM/RSO’s club every month, they can spend their dimes joining the club as junior members from what they save on Scouting America registration fees.

You might say only a small number of COs and families will let their scouts be so reactionary … just like families who react to the removal of dodge ball, or the removal of unisex program, …

It becomes a decline by a thousand cuts.

If a troop wants to maintain routine range time it could result in merely exchanging hazards For us the nearest commercial range is at least a half hour drive away (and I think this applies to most scouts) … twice as far as the nearest game lands or gun club, we double the risk of traffic accidents.

Yes, and just at a crossover recently, the new Dad invited us to their rod and gun club.  They do have insurance.  He joked, if we are limited to "commercial" facilities, they'd be happy to charge us $1 for use of the ranges.

[Tron 97]

On 5/11/2024 at 6:10 AM, RememberSchiff said:

I do not understand why "commercial ranges"  are assumed safer than member-only sportsmen clubs (prohibited?) or more cooperative with an outside group program.

My take on this is based on what I see in my area; member-only clubs in my area have bars on premise and allow smoking. The commercial ranges do not allow either. Could that be a national trend that BSA is looking at?

[Tron 97]

15 hours ago, qwazse said:

 If their patrols can’t go shooting at their trained ASM/RSO’s club every month, they can spend their dimes joining the club as junior members from what they save on Scouting America registration fees.

This is where we are disconnecting on this issue. In my council there are no BSA approved clubs. This is why I see it differently than you; my council already does not have this, none of the ranges and clubs in my area can pass the BSA inspection. 

[RememberSchiff 3713]

1 hour ago, Tron said:

My take on this is based on what I see in my area; member-only clubs in my area have bars on premise and allow smoking. The commercial ranges do not allow either. Could that be a national trend that BSA is looking at?

 Offloading liability? As mentioned, the Hawaiian wrongful death was at a scout camp range.

 I have shot at more than a dozen "commercial ranges" in NH, ME, MA, PA, VA, NV.  Their facilities, staff, clientele, firearms, and safety rules vary considerably.  I do not know of any uniform safety or business certification for commercial ranges; it is the Wild West regarding calibers, actions, rent/bring.  That said, "commercial ranges" usually have a Range Safety officer at the firing line. 

At local club ranges. often members are their own range safety officer. At those local clubs, Scout shooting activity would reserved the whole range and have their own trained RO's;  insurance through the NRA.

Commercial ranges make their money from instruction, equipment, sales but mostly from rentals firing their ammo. Odd we could take Cubs camping at only council-approved camps, but we apparently take Scouts to any "commercial range". What the ... IMHO, Councils should partner with local sportmens  clubs.

Regarding indoor ranges, I have shot at the same range where the Boston Marathon bomber practiced, along-side Philly gang-bangers in PA, and nutjobs firing full-auto in Vegas. Air filtration (lead) at indoor ranges was a concern except at one place. Scary, never been back to any of those places.  I can only recommend one indoor range for Scouts but I am not sure they allow youth or reserve range time for outside groups.

Commercial outdoor ranges are less common hereabouts - competition (local clubs and free state ranges), worry of a round getting away, noise, range vandalism, real estate costs.

My $0.01 for rambling

Edited May 16 by RememberSchiff

[HashTagScouts 449]

49 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

 Offloading liability? As mentioned, the Hawaiian wrongful death was at a scout camp range.

 I have shot at more than a dozen "commercial ranges" in NH, ME, MA, PA, VA, NV.  Their facilities, staff, clientele, firearms, and safety rules vary considerably.  I do not know of any uniform safety or business certification for commercial ranges; it is the Wild West regarding calibers, actions, rent/bring.  That said, "commercial ranges" usually have a Range Safety officer at the firing line. 

At local club ranges. often members are their own range safety officer. At those local clubs, Scout shooting activity would reserved the whole range and have their own trained RO's;  insurance through the NRA.

Commercial ranges make their money from instruction, equipment, sales but mostly from rentals firing their ammo. Odd we could take Cubs camping at only council-approved camps, but we apparently take Scouts to any "commercial range". What the ... IMHO, Councils should partner with local sportmens  clubs.

Regarding indoor ranges, I have shot at the same range where the Boston Marathon bomber practiced, along-side Philly gang-bangers in PA, and nutjobs firing full-auto in Vegas. Air filtration (lead) at indoor ranges was a concern except at one place. Scary, never been back to any of those places.  I can only recommend one indoor range for Scouts but I am not sure they allow youth or reserve range time for outside groups.

Commercial outdoor ranges are less common hereabouts - competition (local clubs and free state ranges), worry of a round getting away, noise, range vandalism, real estate costs.

My $0.01 for rambling

If worrying about there's alcohol and smoking, then our troop would cease to exist- we meet at an American Legion Post, where there is a bar open for members while we are meting in the room next door. Been that way for over 70 years. We're OK for meeting weekly under such conditions, but not to use a range once a year?

I could absolutely see having a checklist and stipulations on what is required when using a sportsmens club versus a commercial range- namely, a fully certified instructor must be present. I've never experienced a sportsmens club that would be OK with a member drinking at the bar and then staggering their way out on to the range. Can't speak for anyone else, but at my club, we absolutely will talk with other members if we see them doing anything that is a safety violation, and we absolutely have politely made some folks former members for not following rules. Apply similar requirements for what we do with any facility that would fall under "short term camping" provisions now and the council can have an "approved" list of facilities- it isn't that difficult, and not that time consuming.  

[InquisitiveScouter 1691]

6 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

If worrying about there's alcohol and smoking, then our troop would cease to exist- we meet at an American Legion Post, where there is a bar open for members while we are meting in the room next door. Been that way for over 70 years. We're OK for meeting weekly under such conditions, but not to use a range once a year?

I could absolutely see having a checklist and stipulations on what is required when using a sportsmens club versus a commercial range- namely, a fully certified instructor must be present. I've never experienced a sportsmens club that would be OK with a member drinking at the bar and then staggering their way out on to the range. Can't speak for anyone else, but at my club, we absolutely will talk with other members if we see them doing anything that is a safety violation, and we absolutely have politely made some folks former members for not following rules. Apply similar requirements for what we do with any facility that would fall under "short term camping" provisions now and the council can have an "approved" list of facilities- it isn't that difficult, and not that time consuming.  

BSA has a Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, Climb On Safely, Cave Safely, Trek Safely, even Drive Safely.... where is the cert for Range Safety for BSA leaders??? Same concepts as the others for the training... you assume responsibility, here are the rules and limitations, and make sure you have an RSO and NRA Certified Instructor (2 subject matter experts)!!  They could (should even) write in instructor : student ratio requirements... I think it is 1 : 5 for NRA, but Range and Target Activities, formerly know as Shooting Sports, is not my forte.

Edited May 16 by InquisitiveScouter

[OaklandAndy 71]

13 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

where is the cert for Range Safety for BSA leaders

I haven't looked at the SSM in awhile, but I know as of last year, you don't even need an RSO to run a range during summer camps. Outside summer camps, yes. During...no. Hmm. 

[Tron 97]

BSA has evaluations. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/Shooting Sports/430-065_WB.pdf

[InquisitiveScouter 1691]

40 minutes ago, Tron said:

BSA has evaluations. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/Shooting Sports/430-065_WB.pdf

Thanks!  Like I said... not my forte.

Also, I was pointing out the inconsistency that BSA has no Training required for BSA unit leaders to supervise an activity here.  Just the statement in G2SS, "All shooting sports activities held outside of a council’s camp will follow the program as outlined in the BSA National Shooting Sports Manual (www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/Shooting-Sports)." 

 

[Tron 97]

On 5/17/2024 at 8:57 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Thanks!  Like I said... not my forte.

Also, I was pointing out the inconsistency that BSA has no Training required for BSA unit leaders to supervise an activity here.  Just the statement in G2SS, "All shooting sports activities held outside of a council’s camp will follow the program as outlined in the BSA National Shooting Sports Manual (www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/Shooting-Sports)." 

 

Because unit leaders are not supposed to be trained to supervise; BSA leaders are either trained and certified for shooting sports or they are completely unqualified, there is no middle ground. The liability around shooting sports is so risky that there is no room for the arm chair supervisors of the other BSA programs. 

[InquisitiveScouter 1691]

47 minutes ago, Tron said:

Because unit leaders are not supposed to be trained to supervise; BSA leaders are either trained and certified for shooting sports or they are completely unqualified, there is no middle ground. The liability around shooting sports is so risky that there is no room for the arm chair supervisors of the other BSA programs. 

LOL, "arm chair", for real?

Climbing, caving, boating, swimming not risky?  I would venture to say each one of those has far more injuries and deaths in Scouting than range sports.

Have you taken those trainings?  Supervision is not expertise... The trainings are not there to have the unit leader be the subject matter expert for the event.  They are there to inform Scout leaders, "If you want to have this type of event for your unit, here are the points which must be observed..."

Take Climb On Safely, for example... The training in no way qualifies a unit leader to take a unit on a climbing activity.  It does inform the unit leader of the qualifications necessary for certified instructors the unit leader MUST have present, though, to conduct the activity safely.

Or Safe Swim Defense... the unit leader supervising the activity need not be classified as a swimmer.  But, the unit leader must make sure everyone has a swim classification, enforce the buddy system, have trained response personnel designated, and so on.

Same for boating, caving, or your other risky activities.

BTW, this past weekend I saw notes from the briefing to Council Execs on these changes.  Part of the changes are to implement a training course for unit leaders, just like Climb On Safely, Safety Afloat, Cave Safely, etc. 

When it comes out, I'll make sure to post a link for you, so you can read it from your arm chair.
 

 

[mrjohns2 593]

7 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

BTW, this past weekend I saw notes from the briefing to Council Execs on these changes.  Part of the changes are to implement a training course for unit leaders, just like Climb On Safely, Safety Afloat, Cave Safely, etc. 

This makes sense as it would allow a leader to say "yes, we have an RSO, we have a rifle instructor, and we are at a commercial range". Just like safe swim defense or climbing, they could confirm that they are setup to meet the requirements vs. just saying "well, these are guys who do shooting normally at district events, so they know best". 

[Tron 97]

On 5/21/2024 at 11:01 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

LOL, "arm chair", for real?

Climbing, caving, boating, swimming not risky?  I would venture to say each one of those has far more injuries and deaths in Scouting than range sports.

Have you taken those trainings?  Supervision is not expertise... The trainings are not there to have the unit leader be the subject matter expert for the event.  They are there to inform Scout leaders, "If you want to have this type of event for your unit, here are the points which must be observed..."

Take Climb On Safely, for example... The training in no way qualifies a unit leader to take a unit on a climbing activity.  It does inform the unit leader of the qualifications necessary for certified instructors the unit leader MUST have present, though, to conduct the activity safely.

Or Safe Swim Defense... the unit leader supervising the activity need not be classified as a swimmer.  But, the unit leader must make sure everyone has a swim classification, enforce the buddy system, have trained response personnel designated, and so on.

Same for boating, caving, or your other risky activities.

BTW, this past weekend I saw notes from the briefing to Council Execs on these changes.  Part of the changes are to implement a training course for unit leaders, just like Climb On Safely, Safety Afloat, Cave Safely, etc. 

When it comes out, I'll make sure to post a link for you, so you can read it from your arm chair.
 

 

I'm salivating waiting for this. It's going to exactly like climb on safely! A legal chokehold that elevates national from liability and voiding the indemnification clause for leaders who do not have the training and experience an incident. This is directly from climb on safely.

"The adult supervisor works cooperatively with the climbing instructor and is responsible for all matters outside of the climbing/rappelling activity. "

Climb on safely is not a training course in climbing. Contrary to popular belief it's a sideways acknowledgment from the leader who takes it that if BSA policies are not followed, they get hung out to dry. For the leaders that don't take it, things are just as bad. Ignorance is not a legal defense to liability in court. 

[SiouxRanger 495]

15 hours ago, Tron said:

I'm salivating waiting for this. It's going to exactly like climb on safely! A legal chokehold that elevates national from liability and voiding the indemnification clause for leaders who do not have the training and experience an incident. This is directly from climb on safely.

The thought here being that National is surreptitiously passing liability for injuries from the Council to volunteer adults with little or inadequate training without their knowledge of the shifting of risk?