Ukrainian flag in place of US flag?

[Armymutt 217]

Was at our District PWD yesterday.  Saw an adult leader who had a Ukrainian flag in place of the US flag on his uniform.  I've seen all sorts of oddities on uniforms, but I've never seen someone replace our flag with that of another nation.  

[skeptic 997]

Definitely a violation of the Uniform Code, and in my view, a poor decision.  It seems obvious it is a personal thing, and it does not belong as a part of the program directly.  Is it worth arguing about?  Probably not.  

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

In my view, a bigger problem than that it's a uniform rule violation is that it's taking a side in an armed conflict as a scouter. Even if everyone else there agrees with the position. Whether you or anyone else can address it with the person skillfully or not is a somewhat different question. A scene a la GSUSA threatening the scouter with the Palestine bracelets with legal action isn't a great first step.

Do you know the person in question?

[Armymutt 217]

8 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

In my view, a bigger problem than that it's a uniform rule violation is that it's taking a side in an armed conflict as a scouter. Even if everyone else there agrees with the position. Whether you or anyone else can address it with the person skillfully or not is a somewhat different question. A scene a la GSUSA threatening the scouter with the Palestine bracelets with legal action isn't a great first step.

Do you know the person in question?

No, he's from a pack in another town, based on his unit number. 

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Only time I've seen a US flag replaced with another country's flag is Puerto Rico. BSA even had literature with pictures of Scouts wearing PR flags instead of US flags.

[OaklandAndy 70]

On 3/17/2024 at 12:47 PM, skeptic said:

Is it worth arguing about?  Probably not.  

I've always believed that if you address the little things, it typically prevents bigger issues from happening. 

I wouldn't have to be rude about it, but it should get addressed as long as you are comfortable with the possible pushback. 

[BlueandSilverBear 60]

A lot of Scouters need to think long and hard about how they are modeling the Scout Oath and Scout Law for their Scouts.

That Scouter should reflect on what he is teaching his Scouts about Duty to Country.

Others need to take "I will keep myself physically strong" a little (ok, a LOT) more seriously.

Edited March 18 by BlueandSilverBear

[Navybone 170]

On 3/17/2024 at 9:47 AM, skeptic said:

Definitely a violation of the Uniform Code, and in my view, a poor decision.  It seems obvious it is a personal thing, and it does not belong as a part of the program directly.  Is it worth arguing about?  Probably not.  

100% agree.  It is inappropriate to remove the US Flag to add the flag of another county.  How does he reconcile that with the citizenship aspect of scouting? 

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

2 hours ago, Navybone said:

It is inappropriate to remove the US Flag to add the flag of another county.

Even with a red passport in addition to a blue one, I represent US scouting with the BSA when I'm in the BSA uniform. The Swedish flag goes on the Swedish scout shirt, the US flag on the US scout shirt. Puerto Rican flags make sense for Puerto Rican scouts. So unless they're in Scouts Ukraine in a Ukrainian scout shirt...

[qwazse 4345]

The solution, to me, seems quite simple: get the scouters shirt size, look up the UA scout association, and see if you can order a shirt his size. Along with payment, send a little extra coin for purchase of tourniquets and other supplies. Give the scouter the shirt, encourage him to go big.

[qwazse 4345]

On 3/18/2024 at 1:40 PM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

… it's taking a side …

Facts not in evidence.
People do wear non-uniform patches because they have a story to tell. Because @Armymutt didn’t ask, we don’t know what that story is.

In terms of taking a side, the American flag is about as much of a side as anyone can take. But the implication of it on a BSA uniform has more to do with identifying the organization’s country of origin, not alignment with international policy. So, I understand why the dissonance. A piece of real estate devoted to affiliation seems to be being appropriated for something more personal. Emphasis on “seems.” Like the Puerto Ricans, that scouter might have some Scouts UA affiliation, and we’ll not know without asking.

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

On 3/18/2024 at 7:57 PM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Puerto Rican flags make sense for Puerto Rican scouts.

No, they do not.  Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States.

Just like a Texas Flag on a uniform does not make sense for Scouts from Texas. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

On 3/21/2024 at 8:54 AM, qwazse said:

Facts not in evidence.
People do wear non-uniform patches because they have a story to tell. Because @Armymutt didn’t ask, we don’t know what that story is.

In terms of taking a side, the American flag is about as much of a side as anyone can take. But the implication of it on a BSA uniform has more to do with identifying the organization’s country of origin, not alignment with international policy. So, I understand why the dissonance. A piece of real estate devoted to affiliation seems to be being appropriated for something more personal. Emphasis on “seems.” Like the Puerto Ricans, that scouter might have some Scouts UA affiliation, and we’ll not know without asking.

I suppose you're right, I don't know for a fact that the scouter in question meant it as a political show of support for Ukraine in the war. They could be Ukrainian and wanted to give a nod to their other country. But political support for Ukraine in the war is a very psychologically available interpretation for many, which is what makes it dicey in terms of not taking sides in armed conflicts even if that wasn't what the scouter meant, and the Puerto Rican scouts are all both from Puerto Rico and members of the BSA at the same time all the time in a way Ukrainian scouts aren't scouting with the BSA. (Which is why I wouldn't move the Swedish flag patch from my old scout shirt onto my BSA shirt, that's not the role I take when I put on the shirt.) The dissonance and near certainty that others will see it as political is a problem. Not a giant, Earth-shattering problem, but a problem nonetheless IMO. But you're also right that we'll never know probably. As long as not that many people see it (no media coverage, etc) it also isn't a big perception dent.

22 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

No, they do not.  Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States.

Just like a Texas Flag on a uniform does not make sense for Scouts from Texas. 

I don't have strong opinions on the PR flag on BSA uniforms TBH, but the fact that PR is a territory but Texas is a state makes a bit different IMO. Although, I did a quick search on this, and it looks like the official scouts website for PR has scouts in uniforms with US flags. https://www.scoutingpr.org/cubscouts/ They have their own, separate website, but if there isn't actually anything officially different in terms of uniforms then that's it, I suppose, although since PR isn't a belligerent in an armed conflict and the scouts are actually from PR no one is going to think scouts with PR flags are doing it as a foreign policy political statement, even if it's a uniform code violation. Either way I'm not bent out of shape about it.