When did it not work?

[Bob White 20]

First Eagle90 I was unaware that you were being forced to participate and endanger your health.

 

Please tell however made you post that participation is voluntary and anyone not wanting to participate needs only to read another thread.

 

For those who do read this, the point was made clear. Unless you can show instances when you followed the program and it did not work, then we have to assume that the program really does work. That brings up the question of "If it works, why do some leaders choose not to learn or not to follow it?"

 

That is what should raise your blood pressure as a leader.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Bob White 20]

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[packsaddle 753]

Back briefly from a TDY enforced hiatus...

TrailPounder, your message about unemployed and the poor...Huh? I'm not sure what that was about.

 

Then there was Bob White's answer to a direct question on how to measure success. "One real good way is self evaluation by comparing what you do, with what you are supposed to be doing."

This one caught my attention and then it seemed that the thread became, ahem, distracted.

My problem with that response is this: I can't see how such self-evaluation can realistically happen. Let's suppose that a troop is operating without being totally conscious of what they are supposed to be doing. In order to make the comparison, they would have to learn what they are supposed to be doing. To me, in that case, it would be simpler if, after learning the correct way, they just did it.

Alternatively, if they are already doing it the way they are supposed to then, according to the argument, there will be no problems. And then the comparison seems pointless. I guess I would like to see a better objective measure if anyone can think of what it would be.

Finally, to try to fit in with the morph the thread has taken, I guess I am guilty myself of casting aspersions at Bob White. I think back to that comment about the gom jabar. Sorry.

But TP, you'll always be Ed Harris (John Glenn in 'The Right Stuff') to me.

[Bob White 20]

"My problem with that response is this: I can't see how such self-evaluation can realistically happen.

 

It's really pretty easy. In a troop situation for instance...

You read page one Of The Boy Scout Handbook on the promise of scouting and ask "do we do that?".

 

You look at each section of the the Scoutmaster Handbook and ask your selves "Is that what we do?".

 

You look at each of the Methods of Boy Scouting and ask "do we consider those in everything we do?"

 

If the answer is no you ask yourselves "Why not? When can we begin?"

 

One thing you should have noticed by now there are trained leaders who should know what they should be doing but have been doing it wrong for so long they think they are right. A little self evaluation could go a long way to making scouting better in the unit they serve.

 

Bob White

 

 

 

[evmori 11]

So the question of "How do you measure the success of the program?" has yet to be answered.

[Bob White 20]

62 posts later and still no one can give an example of using the program and it failing to work for them in their position.

62!

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori 11]

62 posts later and still no one can give an example of using the program and it failing to work for them in their position. 62!

 

There have been examples given. They just don't fit your definition of the program failing. And until you can define how success is measured, you can't determine where the program failed.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle 5]

This whole thread has sorta got me spooked, I guess it has been the season for that. And I admit I may be a little thin skinned when it comes to Moderator criticism as I try to be as fair as I can, to the point of perhaps being overly fair (if thats not an oxymoron). At least thats what I think. I have stayed out of the subject of this thread because while I have had doubts about the perfection of the BSA program, I cant think of any negative situation that I have encountered that was the result of following the program. However, the whole premise that the BSA program is infallible, and that following it will always produce success smacks slightly of being sacrilegious and on a Holy Day for me (All Saints Day)I wonder if getting to wrapped up in glorifying a process engineered by man isnt at the very least "shady". I dont know if I can be any more lucid on this topic, I have struggled with a reply ever since this thread started. Anyway, I do have to say while the BSA Program may not be perfection, it's one of the best there is and we ALL who spend time trying to accomplish the mission of the BSA need to remember to honor ourselves and our fellow brothers and sister who work hard to bring the best program of which we are capable.

 

now in closing, I think its time we all sang a song together, its to the tune of Home on the Range, I think most of you know that (SIC!), I'll start and I want all to join in:

 

Aren't Scoutleaders grand

For the programs they plan

And the hours they put in each night?

If they're ever home

You know they're on the phone

For the youth who they want to teach right.

 

CHORUS:

We're at home in the woods.

On weekends with our units we stay.

Thought we never get rest,

The youth are doing their best,

And that's what we're getting for pay!

 

They hike to their site

Though it takes half the night

Through the wind and the rain and the snow!

These leaders so brave

They could live in a cave

Except that their spouses just say No!

CHORUS:

Camp food tastes just great,

Like an old paper plate,

And the bug juice is not fit to drink.

So why every year,

For a week at camp they come here

It's not for vacation, we think!

CHORUS:

They read magazines

With great camping scenes,

Frustration does things to their brains.

Champagne is taboo, and cigarettes too,

So for forty eight hours they abstain.

CHORUS:

They feel like old men,

On a camp out, they've been

To be clean, to be warm, to be dry!

But to tell you the truth,

they're re living their youth

So in answer they merely reply!

CHORUS:

 

Now, I feel better, I hope you all do too

 

YIS

OldGreyEagle

 

[Bob White 20]

Thanks for the tune OGE, while your so close please put another log on the fire (by the way that's one of my favorite campfire songs).

 

While I am here, let's make something clear. Neither, I nor anyone who has posted in suppport of the program, has ever said that the BSA was infallible, only that the program works, and that it's the BSA's program and they have the responsibility to determine the program, we as volunteers have a responsibility to deliver it.

 

When I was growing up my parents made the rules in our home. Were they infallible? No, but it was their house and their responsibility to make the rules.

 

We volunteered to be volunteers for our various charter organizations to deliver the BSA program for them. Not our program, but the BSA's. As long as we choose to live under the BSA umbrella we have a responsibility to deliver their program as they determine.

 

When I struck out on my own and had my own home then I made the rules. When you start your own youth program you are welcome to do the same. Until then you have a responsibility to your charter organization, the BSA, and most of all to the youth to do what you said you would do and lead a BSA Scouting program.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori 11]

"Until then you have a responsibility to your charter organization, the BSA, and most of all to the youth to do what you said you would do and lead a BSA Scouting program."

 

And we all do. Just not the same way you do, Bob.

 

Thanks OGE.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Bob White 20]

Ed when will you understand that this is not about what I do?

 

It is about the personal responsibility of a BSA volunteer to follow the BSA program.

 

You and others keep trying to make this about what I do. I do what Eamonn and OGE and and a number of others on this board and across the country do we learn and deliver the scouting program. Not because we are different or special, because we aren't. We took on a role as a scoutleader and agreed to follow the policies, programs, and procedures of the BSA and so we do.

 

This is not rocket science, its a decision one either makes or rejects.

 

Why you of all people aren't embracing this is beyond me.

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

I am back from New Mexico with my one stick of wood for a fire that appears to be growing cold.

 

One of the Skills of leadership is to evaluate your progress on a specific goal. If the goal is to be "Friendly" and you feel that you are angry at an individual; you have not failed the goal of Friendliness, instead you have encountered your next goal.

 

Any individual in the Scouting program that is attempting to reach the goals (Aims) of Scouting, as agreed on in their entrance into the program, is not considered a failure until they decide the Scouting program is not for them. So, the initial question cannot be answered and is considered a hypothetical case for doubtful discussion with a low probability of resolution because of the circular reasoning involved.

 

FB

[Bob White 20]

It is easily answerably with a yes or no response. Either you have or haven't had success by changing the program. If you have then you should be able to explain what you did.

 

It is not hypothetical as there is no conjecture involved, no imiginary situation to respond to. This is a real life situation that you had or did not have.

 

It is not circular in that the premise is not based on the conclusion.

 

And so far no one has given an example.

 

 

[evmori 11]

"And so far no one has given an example."

 

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but there were examples given, Bob. You dismissed them because they didn't fit into your definitions.

 

This entire thread seems self serving and pointless! And if you can't define how success in the program is measured, then you can't define when it fails.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10