When did it not work?

[Bob White 20]

We get an awful lot of advice on this forum that begins with "here is what I do".

 

We also hear about a lot of problem that have a common element. The program wasn't followed.

 

I would like some detailed accounts (from those who have taken the Scout Leader training for their position) of how following the BSA Scouting program failed to work for them in their position.

 

B:)b White

 

 

[Eagledad 2779]

I can do that. But lets start off by saying that the BSA program you are talking about is roughly 15 years old. So while I answer your question, I've been wondering how you thought the BSA survived the other 80 years doing a program that you basically say is wrong? My other question is how do you explain two troops with different programs resulting with the same performance?

 

For my part, you can go to any one of my past post and read how I justify why went toward the program that I scoutmastered. Our goal was to build leaders of integrity and citizens of character. When the program wasn't achieving that goal, we tried something different.

 

On one last note, I guess where I'm really different here is I don't believe in just one program. I've always given my opinion of why I think certain aspects or styles of program work better than others. But I also know you should use what works best. The forum is a great place to pass along different ideas. I don't think I've ever given a suggestion without an explination of why I thought it worked.

 

I learned a long time ago that to build a successful program, you have to start with values because when it appears the walls are falling in, only your values will keep you on track. I am convienced our program success wasn't from our approaches to our program. It was our clear site on our values. We migrated to the approaches and methods based from that we wanted our scouts to build habits of character. My hopes are that while I've never explained it in those words, the tone of my post are consistant that values drove the program.

 

Barry

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Barry, could we get one example in detail of how the program was followed and did't work.

 

But first. The program we follow today is 94 years old with seceral evolutions along the way. Todays socirty is not the one it was 94 years ago, the children are not the same as 94 years ago and scouting is not the same.

 

Over all they are better. As scouting discovered better methods they evolved. The program today is different then the program was 90 or 70 or 50 or even 15 years ago. It's better, and 15 years from now it will be better still.

 

As far as two units doing the same thing and getting different results, that has not been proven yet. Nor has the larger troop proven thet their method is better. If the leadser continues the discussion I believe that can be proven.

 

Now could you give a specific time and explain what happened when you followed the program and it did not work?

 

Thanks

Bob White

[Laurie 10]

When the leaders are trained, start out in the year planning a program with shared goals, but a division comes about (some leaders simply like their own way better), it doesn't matter who is trained and using their training and who isn't. What matters is that the leadership is not functioning as a team, the ability to apply what has been learned is hindered. I've been reading more than posting lately, and one think I've been trying to figure out for myself is how to regain unity when a unit is losing it. Training--at least the training received by me to date--doesn't cover that problem.

[Bob White 20]

Laurie that's an excellent point and a discussion worth pursuing...but not on this thread please, the topic is when did you use the program and not have it work. I agree that when others stray problems will occur.

 

I think it deserves its own thread.

thanks

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[BadenP 93]

Bob

 

First of all the quality of training programs in different councils can cause problems. You can put two people in the same class, with the exact same training materials and when they put the program in effect get two very different programs, why, because of the quality of the instructors and their delivery. I have sat in an all day training and felt that I had wasted the day. Teaching methods are as much an integral step as the content of the material being presented. Bob, even you will have to admit that sometimes quality training is lacking and these new leaders go out ill prepared for what they will encounter, yes even the BSA training is not perfect. Sad to say many trainers are older, retired scouters who have not been a leader for many years and the classes wind up being about war stories from "the good old days", quality is lacking. Granted resource books from the BSA are good, but by no means complete in and by themselves. If a leader does not have good common sense and is not adaptable to new circumstances, and is not given solid hands on detailed training in scouting methods then they will have a difficult time succeeding as a scout leader. So to answer your question, when has it not worked, look at the number of scout units that go under every year because of poorly trained leaders who do their best but have trouble putting the program in place as they were told by their trainers who do not explain the variables they will encounter in the field.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Eamonn 61]

Barry,

I really hate to sound dense I have been reading your postings for a long time. Off the top of my head I don't see where you are not or have not used the program.

I use the word program a lot. But at times I think we have different ideas what the program really means.

Scouts and Scouting is not a lot different in some ways than a lot of other youth organizations. I was looking at the UK Scouting web site the other day and they have played around a bit with the wording of their mission and the wording of the methods.

The pat answer that I used to give to anyone who asked me what the British Scouts were all about was: The physical,spiritual and mental development of the young person in oder to take a worthwhile place in society. I think most youth organizations have very similar goals. We can talk about citizenship,fitness and character and Scouting all over the world has these big three as an aim, but so do lots of other youth organizations.

Some use different tools to get the aim across or make what they are doing appealing to the youth so the youth will want to join. There are sports clubs that use baseball, or football. There are church youth groups that have church camps and choirs and bell ringing, the list goes on. What makes Scouting different is our methods. Baden Powell, never intended Scouting to be a stand alone association or organization. He thought that we would fit very well into the other youth organizations that were around at that time. Of course by the time it came over here there were a few changes made. I'm not sure but I think the USA is the only Country that has Chartered Partners. Scouting USA is as far as I can see the Scouting Organization with the most Organization. However putting all that to one side. We have the Scouting methods. Some of which are easy or at least look easy. I don't see how any Scouting program (Here I go with that word again) can exist without the Ideals of Scouting. Most if not all of us can find values in these ideals that are much the same as our own. We can find much of what we believe in the Scout Oath and Law. Outdoors and camping are to Scouts and Scouting are what Baseball is too Little League. This is one of the big "In's" that we have that will draw kids into our organization, or troop.

While there are a few problems with the mechanics of Advancement, we know that it's not rocket science. Do this ,this and that and you can pass go and collect a badge or something as you pass go. Adult Association should be a no brainier.Personal Development or personal growth should be easy.

That leaves us with Uniform. While there is a lot of fuss made about uniform and uniforming. It ought not be that hard. Join our troop and you will need to get a uniform. If you need help we will help you. Seems easy enough too me.

We have almost given the posters in the other threads a run for their money when it comes to Patrols. Most of us know that Patrols and the Patrol Method is one thing that does really make us different than the other youth organizations out there. It is a goal that we the adults need to look at, see how we are doing and keep going back to and asking the same question. There will be times when it works like a dream and times when it is so much easier to say "What the heck" and step in and do whatever needs to be done. Or times when it's half and half.

Along with all this we have leadership development. This to my way of thinking goes hand in hand with Patrols. Some kids will take to being a leader like a duck to water, while others will need tons of help and support.

We should never gage what we are doing or where we are at by looking at another unit. They don't have our kids, they may have a spell where all the kids are great kids who go to bed with the Scout Handbook under their pillow. While you have a troop of kids that are involved in every sport that the school offers. The troop down the road may have that Leader that can inspire kids to do almost anything while the other has a twit who couldn't organize a two car funeral.

The tools needed to deliver the "Program" are out there. There are meeting planners and suggested themes along with organizational charts and planning charts. But the program that I think is the most important is what you did the last time you met with the kids in your troop.

We see here in these forums the attitudes that people have toward different parts of the program. We see guys who think Scout camping should be like a survival test. Guys that want to give away merit badges too Lads who attend a few classes, while others want to make rank advancement so hard, that Baden Powell would still be a Tenderfoot if he were in that troop. We have Leaders who see what they do as serving the needs of the Lads in the troop, while other see the troop as something they own and the Scouts are lucky that they are allowed to join his troop.

A lot of the talking heads or people in the Videos that the BSA puts out are akin to "Father Knows Best" or the "Huxtable Family" While I don't like to think that in the real world our troops are like "Roseanne" I think that many fall about midway.

The material that the BSA makes available is good and given the chance will work. The same can be said about the maintenance book that came with my car. I know if I take it in for the scheduled maintenance I will have fewer problems down the line. The dumb thing is that I follow it when the car is new Once it starts to get old, heck it's lucky to have the oil changed three times a year.

I think the "Here what I do" is like people passing a recipe. Sure there are great cook books that will show you how to make whatever. But something as simple as a hard boiled egg can be cooked a lot of different ways. Some work better than others. Some will leave that black stuff around the yolk. Some will have a different texture, but all will end up being a hard boiled egg.

Barry I see the vision of Scouting talk about Fun and Adventure. I get worried when I visit troops where Fun and Adventure have been forgotten. This irks me a lot more than a troop that has shoddy uniforming or a troop that is trying to move toward the Patrol method. If the program is Fun and Adventure everything else will fall in line. How do I know this? I read it the material that the BSA puts out.

Eamonn

[Eagledad 2779]

Good Evening All

 

>>Off the top of my head I don't see where you are not or have not used the program.

[Bob White 20]

BadenP

 

Another good point and also worthy of discussion but it is not related to this thread.

 

I am asking for times when the program methods were followed and they did not work.

 

BW

[packsaddle 753]

I think most of our problems occur when we can't follow the program for lack of support from levels higher than the troop(s). The best example I know is the complete lack of a merit badge program in this district. There is no list of counselors, no coordinator (outside the troop level), and (with the exception of summer camp) the boys can't pursue MBs independently of the troop. Maybe this belongs in another thread too.

[Bob White 20]

Another good topic, but what I am specifically seeking are times when the program was followed and it did not work.

 

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

The Dreaded Merit Badge List.

Oh how I hate the very mention of the darn thing. Here is one thing that Eamonn and the BSA do disagree on.

The BSA allows a person to be the Counselor for an unlimited number of Merit Badges.

I can see that a little fellow who lives in the middle of no where could be at a disadvantage if there were a limit on how many merit badges the only Merit Badge Counselor, who also lives in the middle of no where can counsel.

In the district we have the king of all merit badge mills. If you want a quick Eagle it is a one stop shop. On the old list, there was an ASM who was the counselor for 42 or 43 Merit Badges.

The old list was past saving. People had tried to update it. People had changed the format we had a list that didn't work available on disk, in word and in Excel. A little over a year ago I got mad, really mad and pushed through the District Committee that the list was dead. I was helped a great deal by the first two names on the list. They were dead. It was like the dead parrot sketch from Monty Python. They were deceased, no more, pushing up daisies.

As a committee we said that as of January 1st. The old list was no longer in use. Everyone that wanted to be a Merit Badge Counselor would have to re-apply and the new appointment was good for a year. As all Merit Badge Counselors have to be approved by the District Advancement Committee we made it known that unless there was some really good reason the Advancement Committee would only approve a maximum of five badges per person.

Do I know what we are doing is not in line with the BSA? Yes I do.

We now have an outstanding list, that works Scouts are using it. The one stop shop has slowed down. Advancement reports that used to read 10, 20, 8, 168, 20, 6. Have lost that odd man out number.

The Council Advancement Committee have asked all Districts to do as we have done. The SE is behind this break from the what the BSA, has in the book. Everyone is happy, the chap who used to council all the Merit Badges is gone his son quit Scouting. The unit commissioner phoned to see why and the Lad said Scouting was boring.

37 Merit Badges and he never left the house. I bet it was boring.

Eamonn.

[Adrianvs 10]

By definition, "the program" is "that which works in every situation." If someone submits that THE PROGRAM cannot be truly manifested in a particular situation, it will be stated that it was the fault of the practitioners, not an inherent problem with THE PROGRAM. I am reminded of the adherents of communism, who defend the failures of communist regime after regime by stating that they weren't REALLY practicing communism. The problem wasn't with dialectical materialism, they say, but with the failures of the individual practitioners. Remarkably, Bob's description of THE PROGRAM getting progessively better and better over time smacks of Hegel's dialectic of history.

 

Questions: If THE PROGRAM is perfect at this moment (and was perfect at any given moment in history), then how do these "seceral evolutions" take place. Since THE PROGRAM is maintained and changed by human beings and these human beings must have some basis for whatever change they are making at the time, what errors have existed in the past to necessitate the changes (evolutions) that have taken place. Whoever made those changes had to have been responding to some problem at the time they were making those changes. Can you admit that the problems existed at those times? Can you admit the possibility that there are problems which demand changes at the moment? Do the problems only exist if the right people see them?

 

 

Just for the record, I do not have any major objections to the current form of the scouting program espoused by the BSA. I simply find the notion of the program as always perfect, yet ever-changing as a little too mythological. Not that anyone is claiming this, of course.. It's just the impression that some give. Maybe THE PROGRAM is perfect at the moment; I just doubt that it is necessarily so by definition.

[Bob White 20]

Actually Eamonn what you are doing now is much closer in line with the national procedure than you previous method was. So got you into trouble was not the program but when someone strayed.

 

What the national advancement resources say is that a counselor can counsel as many badges as he is qualified and approved for.

 

So if you had people doing the counseling incorrectly or for badges they were not qualified to do then who was responsible? The district and council advancement committees, the same group who now are starting to review and approve your counselor applications. How often are they to do this? Every year.

 

So it was not the national program that messed you up, it is in fact returning to the national program that is solving the problem.

 

Can ANYONE come up with a situation where using the program did not work?

 

We have had hundreds of posts this year from folks with problems stemming from parents or adults not following the program, and yet no one can come up with an example of when using the program did not work.

 

Why then do so many posters claim they purposely do not follow the BSA program??

[packsaddle 753]

Eamonn, I nearly fell out of my chair.

Adrainvs, This just got interesting!