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Please help our pack!


Our new pack (1 year old) has thrived with great success not only in our community but leadership as well. The boys are best of friends and we continue to grow. The Scouts have been publicized for all their community involvement and also offered many opportunities, donations and accolades from the neighborhood.


I started this pack after leaving a previous pack that let their personal problems enter the group setting with children around. Their morals and values did not align with my own, or the way I wanted my child to be raised. Myself as well as all our leadership worked very hard to develop and maintain the phenomenal pack we have today. My dedication does not falter as am in this for the long run. I am looking to start a Troop as well.


With this being said, our pack now has a problem, and it's scary:


We are chartered by a Church that has very recently merged with another church (after our annual charter renewal). This new church has a known reputation within the lutheran hierarchy (the synod) of 'does not play well with others'.....{exact words of the synod representative}.


Our original charter has never participated in any meeting, conference, planning, or training in regards to their charter agreement. We do have a charter representative, an elderly man who has never come to a meeting and to my knowledge does not have proper training either. Our pack continuously requested appearances and assistance from our charter and were never assisted. Our Pack had no problems, however we did want to include our charter with our Pack (as I was told from our local BSA council 'should' happen in accordance with our charter agreement). Our Charter was always hands off with us, but we managed with what we had through our Pack leadership.


Our pack has thrived very well on its own this last year until the new church moved in. We were trusted with the use of property and given keys as well. The new Pastor, without ever enteracting with the pack or meeting our leadership, had composed, signed and sent out a letter stating that the Cub Master, Committee Chair, and Treasurer were deemed unfit at creating a healthy environment for the pack and were to be removed from the pack and banned from all scouting activities effective immediatly.! THE PACK I STARTED!


I understand that the charter organization technically has ownership over the unit (sadly in this situation), however I am begging anyone out there in scout land to please help us. The whole pack wants to move elsewhere and our charter (whom has been absent since the beginning) now has new, very intimidating leadership that wants to wipe the slate clean and insert their own leaders, rather than start their own pack. Mind you that the incredible community popularity is what attracted the new pastoral team to "keep" the pack, including the unit number that has such significance to us, rather than release us......My only option is to try and find another charter for this fantastic group of children and their parents...but the pastor also refuses to give up our unit number to create his own! He has also tarnished the names and character of the all our leadership that he has never met, by giving off the perception of wrong doing or inadequacy on our part. And the perception a current scout parent, or perspective family has of us, as leaders, is so incredibly important as we are the adults taking an oath to do right by their children. To this day no documentation of wrong doing has ever been presented to us as a reason for the charter's decision, only the statement that they 'can'. This is going to be so hard to recover from. It is also my fear that even though our boys have been so stellar and Leadership has abided by all rules and done no wrong, that our charter has tarnished our name so much that BSA might not allow us to start another Pack elsewhere.



I don't know what to do, I feel like we have been hung out to dry when all we have ever done has been something good.



I have already contacted our District Executives and been told that there is not much that can be done due to the BSA rules and regulations as far as who technically 'owns' the Pack. I am at such a loss, so are all my families. The children are not aware of what is going on, and should not be involved. It is also the beginning of our school/scout year in exactly one week and I have nine new families waiting to turn in applications, AND attend our beginning of the year Rain Gutter Regatta!


My fear is that ultimately the Scouts will hurt from all this as they either taper away due to inactivity while waiting for a solution, and or our new families/scout friends will be scared away due to unnecessary conflict and inconsistency created by our charter.



Yes they 'can' do this.....but is it morally right? No.


So I am asking for help; anyone...please... Can you tell me if our charter agreement with the church can be voided due to their non compliance with training, communication, participation and not conducting themselves by the Scout Oath and Law as stated in the contract?




Also, could the new merger of churches also void the contract?



Anything will help our boys. Thank you so much for your time.



Denver Colorado Cub Master

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Yah, hmmm...   Sorry to hear about da difficulties, @@Cubmaster35.   Your handle says "Cubmaster", but you're talkin' a bit like da Cubmaster who was removed is a different person.  Can I ask what

I have edited this post. Your comment against another forum member is out of line. This is the only warning I will give.   You are free to explain your situation. You are not free to verbally assau

I disagree, NJCubScouter. The OP didn't provide information that Beavah thought was needed. That kind of information void is (as you well know in these forums) likely to be filled with speculation in

I would find someone else to charter the unit.  Have a new unit number and move it.  Maybe find a group like the vfw or similiar organization that would be willing to charter the unit so you don't have to deal with the politics.  Besides, the older veterans love to support scouting .

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Yah, hmmm...


Sorry to hear about da difficulties, @@Cubmaster35.


Your handle says "Cubmaster", but you're talkin' a bit like da Cubmaster who was removed is a different person.  Can I ask what your current position with the pack is?


Yeh also don't provide any information on the possible reasons why your new Institutional Head (IH) has decided to remove the CM,CC, and treasurer.  That leads us all to speculate, eh?  Problem with speculation is that it might not be helpful to yeh, but I'll try.


One possibility is that there was a confidential report of wrongdoing made to the pastor that you aren't aware of.  If that's the case, yeh might never be made aware of it.  Maybe it's been referred to the police and an investigation is in process, maybe it didn't rise to that level but was still somethin' the church could not countenance.  For a variety of practical and legal reasons, yeh aren't goin' to get more than the generic statement, eh?  Folks can't talk about those things.


Another possibility that seems more likely to me is that the pastor isn't comfortable with non-Lutherans in those key positions, or perhaps has other information on their behavior that isn't consistent with their view of proper examples for kids (Gay?  Divorced? etc.)  Given what yeh say about the view of the synod toward the church this seems quite possible.  


Unfortunately, that's a situation where the pastor and da church get to make the call.  It can make yeh sad, it can make yeh angry, but you and any parents who agree with you are not in a position to affect that decision.


So you're left with the choice of either staying and making it work, or leavin' and startin' afresh somewhere else.    Don't dismiss either possibility.  We do this for the kids, eh?  Every unit has a set of founders, but just because yeh start somethin' doesn't mean you own it. Startin' a unit is a gift yeh give to the church and community, and once you've given that gift yeh can't take it back.   Yeh can either keep giving, or go somewhere else and give a new gift.



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I apologize but I have reported you and requested that your comment be removed. It may be your opinion, but creating speculation of wrong doing towards a child in any way, shape or form from an innocent party is very damaging and I won't allow you to do it to good people.


If you are part of scouting what so ever you should know how hateful and damaging comments like that could be. The people you speak of have children in scouts and in fact have done nothing wrong. Its a matter of greed from the new church wishing to liquidate assets and absorb/appropriate the good neighborhood rapport that the scouts have created on their own.


We are trying to preserve and protect the scouts and their pack. The church is no longer a healthy place for the kids to be.


I was not asking what your opinion was, nor did I ask for you to publically defame a stranger by stating that they could have allegations against them.


Real advice about what our packs options are is what we were looking for.




So please, your damaging words can go elsewhere.

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So the answer to your initial question is no, there is nothing you can do about this.  As leaders we all serve at the pleasure of the Chartering Organizations that holds the Charter with BSA, there are no exceptions to that and no way to appeal it.  


Certainly you can try to find a new Chartering Org to start a new Pack with, but I would remind anyone in your position that the reason you're involved in scouting is, I assume, because you believe scouting is something important for your son the be involved in.  With that in mind, you also need to remember that that doesn't mean it's important for you to be in scouting; consider taking a step back, find a Pack that's already up and running that your son and his buddies can just go be a part of.  If that Pack is looking for parents to help out occasionally great, but concentrate on your son being in scouts and don't worry for a bit whether you are in scouts.   

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What synod of Lutheran is it?  I'm thinking it's either LCMS or ELCA.  LCMS is pulling back on it's support of the BSA program so there might be some directive coming down from on high on the congregation that isn't being expressed.  ELCA is very liberal that I can't imagine them being political with a scout troop. The other Lutheran synods would not be suporting BSA in the first place.

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Pardon me but would you mind elaborating on your answer David CO?

I am here seeking help for our boys and details would be appreciated.


You said that the morals and values of your previous unit did not align with your own.  That's why you started the new unit.


Is it possible that the leadership of your previous unit has harbored hard feelings over your having started a new unit, and has poisoned the well for you at your new merged church?


If you are going to be a member of the merged church, then I would suggest that you try to work things out with the pastor.


If you are not, than I suggest that you quietly move on.  

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@@Cubmaster35, call your district executive (DE) immediately

Leave the pack #s with the old CO.

Ask your district executive if there is CO who would be interested in supporting your pack. See if the reverse of your numbers (53?) is available.

Move on quickly and cheerfully.


This pretty much the advice I gave to our members of our committee when our merger resulted in a moving of COs, and they wanted the numbers to move with them.


And don't be so sensitive. A minus 1 is fair retribution if @@Beavah's guess is far from the mark. Let people talk. Live for the boys' smiles.


Dare the pastor to form a pack as great as yours. Ask him to, if at all possible, have the leaders run their program on on a different night so as to reach as many boys as possible.


FWIW, this is why Presbyterians have the clerk of session as their institutional head. Pastors can drift in with all kinds of crazy ideas. Congregants have a better sense of the traditional needs of their community. And the two need to balance one another. However, even with that balance of power, all bets are off in denominational mergers.

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I see a problem with the setup of the CO.  Contrary to what one might think, the pastor of a Lutheran congregation is NOT the IH.  The President of the Church Council is.  The pastor is a non-voting member of the council and is not representative of the congregation.  The pack was registered incorrectly in the first place and now it is obvious why an ever changing pastor should not be the IH of a static organization, the CO.  Instead of program controlled by a voting committee, one has ended up with a single tyrant who does not speak for the congregation.

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As others have stated, there may be something that has been told to the new IH about the leadership that you do not know about: accusations, innuendo, rumours, etc. Good news is that if it was the case, BSA wold have been told and your membership yanked, permanently.


The IH may not like Scouting for whatever reason.  I had a CO get e new IH who hated Scouting. After having the police called on us for trespassing because we were late getting out of an Eagle Court of Honor, we moved to a different CO.


And the CO may want the unit's leadership to be a member of the CO. My current troop is like that, they want the SM to be a member of the church.


As others mentioned, it may be time to get another unit going.

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Beavah, this time your speculation really does seem somewhat damaging. You have no clue what is going on in this particular unit, and yet in your wild fantasies, somehow the police are involved.


To use a modern turn of phrase: Really?


Your reckless speculation is spectacularly unhelpful, especially where a new poster is concerned.


Having said that, in this forum, the deletion of posts (or portions thereof) is an "honor" that is reserved for only the very worst and most offensive posts. (Not counting advertising/spam.) Those posts are very few and far between. If you exclude posts in the Issues and Politics section, or posts that should be there, there have probably only been a handful of such posts during my time as a member of this forum. (14 years.) This particular post is close to that line but does not meet this moderator's standard for deletion. That is, of course, not binding on the other moderators. I have, however, said what I think of Beavah's post, and I gave it that red down-arrow thing, which I seldom use.

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