Eagle project proposal threshold for signing or not signing

[fred johnson]

What do others do when asked to review a scout's Eagle project proposal? With the current process, when would you ask a scout to return for signature AFTER making changes ?

 

WRITING ???

- A few minor writing errors? (capitalization, spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc)

- Significant writing errors? (structure, disorganized, etc)

- Major writing errors? (concepts not understandable without explanation)

 

CONTENT ???

- Empty spots but the scout can demonstrate that he has the answer?

- Shallow answers that show no reflection or thought on the question?

 

OTHER ???

- Parent defending and explaining the proposal instead of the scout?

- Proposal quality looks like he would not do a quality job?

 

 

FOLLOW UP QUESTION ... Would you sign allowing the scout to proceed ON HIS HONOR that he will add what is missing and correct what is wrong?

 

I'm just looking to see when others would NOT sign the Eagle proposal based on the proposal itself ?

[Stosh]

I just sign without reading. It's his project, his proposal, it should be his job to get it right. To-date, no project has been rejected by the committee. I don't see anywhere in the requirement where leaders should be involved in the project or the project's proposal paperwork other than a signature, which they automatically get. It give me a heads up he's decided on what he wants to do.

 

Stosh

[T2Eagle]

Mostly I do what jblake does.

 

I do have a short conversation with the scout. We have a district person who is effectively the Advancement Chair for eagle scouts, I make sure the scout has cleared the project with both that person and the recipient community organization. I then have the scout explain to me verbally what the project is and roughly how he intends to get it done.

 

The final plan gets a bit more scrutiny, mostly by a committee person we have. I'll scan it before signing, if it really looks like an unintelligible mess I'll have him work on it.

 

It's the execution of the plan that really matters, not so much the paperwork. And I don't think anyone beyond the district guy really reads them, so if he's happy with the paper I'm happy.

[scoutergipper]

I consider this another teachable moment, so don't let it just slide by me with grammatical or spelling errors. We have a pretty good system of vetting projects in the Troop before they ever get to me, so they are not likely to be in any kind of gray area/at risk for approval at the District level. I spend some additional time talking over the project with the Scout, especially if I see something in there that might trip him up going forward. I'd never refuse to sign even a project I thought might be deficient because that is also a learning opportunity. I don't have a checklist or anything - if the Scout says it's complete (or will be), I take him at his word. Got in trouble once from the District because the Scout didn't follow through on completing the "life statement" piece he said he would. Received a phone call from a very exercised District volunteer reading me out for signing when the life statement was not included. I explained that she didn't understand Boy Scouting, that her beef was with the Scout and she should feel free to take it up with him. I think I have a "reputation" at District now.

[Torchwood]

Anything worth doing is worth doing correctly, and that includes grammar and spelling. Since the schools don't seem to be overly concerned about turning out kids who can write a decent paper anymore, I think it should fall to us to at least give them the opportunity. You never know when that skill may come in handy for them down the road. It might even make the difference on a college or job application.

[scoutldr]

I would discuss with the scout how he plans to show "leadership" through the project. It is not so much the number of hours or product or service that is produced, but how the plan is executed. I also told them my standard is to have enough detail that, should the scout get hit by a truck, someone else coule pick up the plan and carry out the project without him. I learned what the District guy would look for (safety, power tools, budget, fundraising, etc) and would screen for that. It was not an automatic signature...several got sent back for re-work before it went to district.

[Stosh]

Part of the purpose of the project is to be good at it. If the boy knows it is not going to be critiqued, vetted, processed in anyway and that he is on the trapeze without a net, he'll do a good job, on his own, the first time. No adult crutches! The potential to fail is right there in front of them, they need to figure out how to avoid it.

 

IF, on the other hand they ask for help, they get it of course. I have had boys have their project proposals and final report outs looked over by their English teachers! Hey, that shows real maturity. I'm not the one who always has to teach, but I make opportunities for the boys to step up to the plate.

 

Whether it be a job interview, a college application, or whatever, the boy needs to learn to stand on his own two feet. This project is yet another opportunity to learn that. If they screw up and not get Eagle, that's a life lesson they taught themselves. They don't need me to rub it in.

 

It's always quite remarkable the level the boy achieves when he knows there is no one there to guarantee him success. Surprisingly it has been my experience that only those that quit actually fail.

 

Even with this attitude of mine, Eagle scouts still honor me with their mentor pin.

 

Stosh

 

Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

Fred, personally I think most the things you mentioned are areas that should be corrected or improved before the SM or CC signs it. I see nothing wrong with making the Scout come back for a signature once the corrections are made. I might make an exception in an "emergency," and I know the same is true for the people in our unit who actually sign the workbooks. (Our CC insists on being the signer on behalf of the committee.)

 

Although, I am not sure you could reject a proposal for "proposal quality looks like he would not do a quality job." I guess it depends what the problems are with the quality of the proposal.

 

JBlake, the next time you sign one of these Eagle project proposals, you might want to read the words right above what you are signing, before you sign without reading the entire proposal. It says that you, as SM, have done certain things, including "I have reviewed this proposal and discussed it with the candidate." Admittedly, it says "reviewed" and not "read", but I think it means "read" anyway. Yes, it is the Scout's project, but you have a mentoring role, and this is part of that role.

 

Scoutldr, we always used to tell Scouts that also: The plan needs to be so detailed that another Scout could just pick up the plan and run the project from it. And I think it is still legitimate to tell Scouts that, but with the current version of the workbook (and I guess this goes back about 3-4 years) it is no longer legitimate to require it as a condition for a signature. The plan is now a separate part of the workbook that does not require anyone's signature.

[Stosh]

I am fully aware of what I am signing and yes, it does not say "read", "critique", "correct", "modify", "vet", "edit", or any thing other than review. I'm thinking if they want the SM to read it, they would say so. This reviewing process, of course, happens long before the boys puts pen to paper. SMC's are held to offer project opportunities and options. They are used to encourage and monitor. They are there for the boys to ask for help if they need it, etc. By the time the boy puts his paper in front of me to sign I know exactly what the boy is intending to do. I don't need to read it. I don't know if his T's are crossed and his I's are dotted, or whether or not his grammar is perfect. But I do know it is not my job to judge the quality of his writing. No where in BSA literature does it say for me to do that!

 

All these extra steps the adults gyrate themselves through to insure the boy's project meets their standards is adding to the requirement.

 

Sorry, I have seen these well-meaning extras abused to the point where one boy actually quit scouts rather than deal with it. The road to Hell is paved with a lot of good intentions. A little MYOB goes a long way in helping a boy become independent and stand on his own two feet. A boy's Eagle project is exactly just that, HIS PROJECT! Leave him alone to work it through. If he has a concern or needs help, he knows where to come. If he's not yet mature enough to do that, maybe he's not mature enough for Eagle.

 

If the boy's proposal doesn't fly at the Eagle review committee, then it will bounce back and he'll need to work it out with them. I'm sure they will be quite clear in why the proposal has been rejected. I've never seen that happen so I can't speak to it. I have had the ERC call me and ask about a boy's project but it never had anything to do with punctuation, spelling or grammar.

 

Stosh

 

[Twocubdad]

A flaw in the process is that proposal writing is not a skill we teach out Scouts. But then we expect them to put together a detailed, written plan for their Eagle project. Prior to the 2011 policy changes 50 page proposals were not uncommon in our council. That was insane. A dad in our troop is a Six-Sigma instructor and would shake his head and laugh at the complexity of EP proposals. The 2011 changes to the process fixed a lot of that and I was a very early supporter of the new process. (Unfortunately they went too far in other areas, but that's a different thread.)

 

The key to an Eagle proposal is for the Scout to convince those approving it that he knows what he's doing and has a reasonable chance of success.

 

The answer to your question is coaching. Don't set up the process with the Scout where all you are doing is grading his paper. Make it one where you are working together for the Scout to learn a very important life skill. If that takes more than one or two sessions working together, so be it. But don't let it come to a point where the proposal is rejected. Instead, you just continue working through the process. Part of this is instilling in the Scout a sense of pride in what he is doing. As in everything, we need to be showing our Scouts what excellence looks like.

[MattR]

We ask scouts to put in enough description and detail that they can give the book to someone else and they could run the project. The only point is to get the scout to think through all the details. Things usually change but the scout has enough insight that he can easily deal with the change. So we will ask a scout to fill in more information before we'll sign it.

[TAHAWK]

I suppose it's a matter of quite legitimate differences in point-of-view.

 

Many a Scout will, in his live, be called upon to propose something in writing. Success in that endeavor may be very important.

 

"Be Prepared." "For what?" "For any old thing."

 

I can help, so I do. Not that I write it for them. It has to be the Scout's "voice." But I explain the importance of a good impression and of clarity, and I coach them. I have done the same for the kids at a high school my employer "adopted." I receive luxurious compensation for my time.

 

It's the journey, not the destination.

[fred johnson]

Thanks for all the input. I was wondering. I've seen some approved and at Eagle Boards of Review that have egregious spelling, grammatical or punctuation mistakes in them. I talked with a few of the leaders and it sounded like everyone thought it was the other guys role to comment on that. But I've also seen some from scouts that I later learned that was their level of ability for writing either through dyslexia or just slow learning.

[scoutergipper]

I've seen some approved and at Eagle Boards of Review that have egregious spelling' date=' grammatical or punctuation mistakes in them. I talked with a few of the leaders and it sounded like everyone thought it was the other guys role to comment on that. [/quote']

 

It's human nature, I suppose, to be lazy and think that "the other guy" will teach the lesson. The truth is that failing to teach when an opportunity presents is a violation of the Oath and the Law. Not only are you not "doing your best," but you're not being trustworthy, kind or loyal to a Scout that you let slide by you.

 

[Stosh]

If one is going to do a quality job for the Eagle project, maybe the scout should also do a quality job on the paperwork. It's all part of the same project. A boy who cuts corners on the paperwork is apt to cut corners elsewhere. If adults are going to cover over/correct/edit the boy's work, then it is no longer his work. Every time an adult does this, they are stealing an opportunity from the boy to show leadership, the express purpose of the project itself.

 

Stosh