Read any good books lately?

[Kahuna 172]

Still working on bios of professionals from the old days. One of the best sources I've found is council histories. Not every council has one and often they are old and long out of print.

 

Has anyone come across a history of their council that has some good bio information on the old-time professionals?

 

A really good example is The Saga Of Potato Canyon (Conquistador Council), by Minor S. Huffman. They sell it in the trading post at Philmont. He was the first director of Philmont Scout Ranch (post Philturn, etc) and had a fascination career.

 

All inputs appreciated.

[fgoodwin 23]

Its unrelated to council histories, but I recently finished Robert Putnam's "Bowling Alone".

 

If you've ever wondered why BSA membership is down, take a look at this book. W/o getting into 3-G territory, suffice it to say that almost all traditional organizations have experienced membership declines, and Putnam's book looks at various explanations: the advent of working mothers, the increased number of corporate relocations, the increasing use of TV, Internet and video games, etc. Putnam offers no easy solutions, but his follow-up book, "Better Together" looks at specific examples of organizations that have managed to buck the trend.

 

I recently started reading that book and hopefully it will offer some insight into stemming the losses.

[packsaddle 753]

Fred, I've read it and I agree it's a good book. One silver lining I see in the increased cost of energy is the incentive to rebuild a sense of community. The increased costs will provide incentives to produce locally, to trade locally, and to communicate and travel locally. It might be good to reintroduce ourselves to each other. We might even like it.

I recently read "Justinian's Flea" and for me it was a long-overdue reintroduction to classical history. Good story too.

[Kahuna 172]

I'll have to take a look at that. There's no doubt that organizations like the BSA are taking a beating from the current trends in kids activities. Reading these old histories of Scouting makes me realize that, although kids and adults had to work a lot in the early 20th century, kids really had very little to do. Fortunately, there were a lot books for kids and the success of the "Boy Scouts Defeat The Whatevers" novels that were popular in the early years probably stems from that. Glad I'm not trying to collect all of those!

[Kahuna 172]

I'll have to take a look at that. There's no doubt that organizations like the BSA are taking a beating from the current trends in kids activities. Reading these old histories of Scouting makes me realize that, although kids and adults had to work a lot in the early 20th century, kids really had very little to do. Fortunately, there were a lot books for kids and the success of the "Boy Scouts Defeat The Whatevers" novels that were popular in the early years probably stems from that. Glad I'm not trying to collect all of those!

[scoutmaster52 10]

Just started James West and the History of the Boy Scouts of America.

[Kahuna 172]

Scoutmaster 52, that's a really good book and one I've relied on heavily in my treatment of West. Always wondered why he wasn't regarded more reverentiallyin the BSA. Now I know. They were glad to be rid of him and didn't want a cult following.

 

An anecdote I came across: at the the '37 Jambo, an older Eagle Scout came back to camp late after visiting family friends in Washington. He was escorted to West's tent, where the Chief removed the boy's Eagle badge. West said he had violated Scout Law Number One, which at the time stated a boy could be directed to hand over his Scout badge if he failed, when trusted on his honor, to do a given task. His task was to be with his troop as a boy leader and thus had failed. West called him in again at the end of the Jambo and questioned him, then returned the badge. Talk about micromanaging! Also "letter of the Law."

[emb021 16]

"that's a really good book and one I've relied on heavily in my treatment of West. Always wondered why he wasn't regarded more reverentiallyin the BSA. Now I know. They were glad to be rid of him and didn't want a cult following."

 

Having also read the book, I have to agree. West was a real piece of work. While he did many good things for the BSA, he did a lot of bad things, many of which IMO we are still 'paying' for.

 

Strangley enought, there are some who have read the book and whose opinion of him has apparently improved greatly.

 

 

 

[Kahuna 172]

"he did a lot of bad things, many of which IMO we are still 'paying' for"

 

I'd guess you're referring to the entrenchment of "rule by executives" which was his major accomplishment and indeed his major philosophy.

 

It's interesting that Rowan mentions one of the few men who stood up to West was Green Bar Bill Hillcourt. I wish I had known that when he was alive. I'd love to have heard some of his observations. Actually, I don't recall him ever saying anything about West at all. Quite a bit about the administration of the times, however.

[emb021 16]

""he did a lot of bad things, many of which IMO we are still 'paying' for"

 

"I'd guess you're referring to the entrenchment of "rule by executives" which was his major accomplishment and indeed his major philosophy."

 

The so-called 'volunteer run/professionaly directed' nonsense? In most other non-profit membership orgs, the professional staff are clearly understood to be employees of the org, who could be hired and fired at will of the org, and not the bosses of the members.

 

Plus stuff like:

 

* power/vote in the organizaton given to chartered org reps, not the membership. (what other membership organization does that?)

 

* selection of 'elected' leadership done by a single slate of candidates voted on as a single group with no nominations from the floor nor voting on each single candidate. (real democratic?)

 

And, IMO, the boy scout program as it began deviated quite a bit from what B-P had set down, and thru the efforts of people like GBB, was brought more in line with what it should have been.

 

[Kahuna 172]

I seem to recall from the book that originally the charter was given to the SM. I suppose changing that was one of West's dictates. That doesn't bother me as much as the lack of real democratic process in elections as you mention. At least it gives volunteers a reason to cultivate the COR.

 

Sadly, there are no more GBBs around, nor are there ever likely to be again. That's one of the reasons I'm writing the book. People should be able to look back to a time when such men were in the program.

[emb021 16]

"I seem to recall from the book that originally the charter was given to the SM. I suppose changing that was one of West's dictates. That doesn't bother me as much as the lack of real democratic process in elections as you mention. At least it gives volunteers a reason to cultivate the COR."

 

Keep in mind that West wasn't our first executive director, but our third. So things were done a little differently in the first year before West came along, and further changes occured under him.

 

While I think the idea of having CO is a good one, the last of proper democractic/parliamentary process is something I don't think is good. As well as members have any say. Having to cultivate the COR is not a good method, because keep in mind the COR is not there to represent the units (and its members/leaders), but the chartered org.

 

"Sadly, there are no more GBBs around, nor are there ever likely to be again. That's one of the reasons I'm writing the book. People should be able to look back to a time when such men were in the program."

 

Too true. I always wished the GBB has been proclaimed Chief Scout. He was the only person at the time worthy of the title. And I can't think of anyone who could replace him.

 

 

[skeptic 992]

Interesting discussion re: West and GBB. While West was certainly a difficult person in many respects, he also accomplished a lot to put the early program on sound footing. All of the "founders" had their faults, but they appear to have had the goal of giving a viable and efficient program to the youth of the period. We can cast stones at Boyce for pretty much disappearing after the first few months, and perhaps not completing his promised financial support. Reports are that Beard could be surly and belligerant at times. Seton appears to have had ego issues. And of course, even B.P.'s direction was not universally followed or accepted; and there are many unknowns about him, as well as Olave. But, would we even still exist without all of their early efforts?

 

Possibly we would have a better, certainly different group if some of the prominent people involved at the start who withdrew had stayed the course. We need to look back with respect, but also recognize the shortcomings and try to learn from their mistakes.

[troutmaster 10]

On the subject of books: I have found many of the "real" scout adventure books from the 20's and 30's. Some of these stories are truly inspiring, others seem in retrospect to demonstrate fortunate outcomes in questionable endeavors. But, these were things young men did in that period of our history, even non-scouts. I think the most amazing book is one by a South American scout called MY HIKE. He, and two others started out from Buenos Aires to hike to New York City. He actually completed the journey; one of the others died, and the second one had to be carried out. Foolish; very possibly. But what a great adventure.

 

Also interesting, and, for me, often amusing, is the one by the French scouts who took a "flivver" from Paris to Cambodia in the 30's. Lots of challenges to overcome, including literally taking the car apart and putting it back together, and somehow getting it and them across dangerous rivers and very high mountains.

 

On the home front, we have the well known THREE SCOUTS IN AFRICA, ones to do with national park work, sea journeys, and the saga of 800 scouts who reenacted a trip from Wyoming to Oregon on the Oregon Trail back in the 30s.

 

More recent books are also out there, such as the story of the Koshare group, or the history of the Hmong scouts.

 

Wonder how many scouters even have heard of some of these things. And wouldn't it be great if some of these true adventures could be made into a series for TV?

 

 

[Miki101 14]

"I'd love to have heard some of his observations. Actually, I don't recall [Green Bar Bill] him ever saying anything about West at all."

 

In an interview with the late Robert Peterson for the 75th BSA Anniversary book, Hillcourt notes of West:

 

"West was a clean thinker; he had a way of listening to people and then summarizing what they had been saying and then asking them, "Am I correct in my interpretation?" He was the best listener we've ever had. Well, the very fact that he listened to this young fellow from Denmark coming over here, that alone shows it. And I can give you other examples."

 

It goes on but you get the point...he was noted as a father figure one moment and a tough taskmaster the next. I think that Ed gets that point across well in his book.

 

David C. Scott