Pulling their leg

[hops_scout]

Rooster, you're right. They do have special heart protectors or something like that for little kids, but they are like 50 dollars apiece. I dont know a league who would be able to buy 200 of those or more.

[Fat Old Guy]

OGE, the story that I hear about "call out" v. "tap out" was that some people were getting too exuberant in their "tapping" and causing injury. Instead of promulgating instructions that care should be taken and that adults need to monitor the activities, the action was banned.

[dsteele]

I like the words I read about hazing being defined by the victim -- just like sexual harrassment. I think that people of all ages are more than capable of finding ways to embarrass themselves without the help of others and that with the help of others, they learn to overcome it and face the world bravely.

 

As to the tap out being replaced by the callout -- I, too was disappointed. However, the accounts of overzealous Alowats breaking collar bones and dislocating shoulders are true. Of course and advisor worth his/her salt tried to coach the youth into tapping rather than smacking, but how important were the taps in the overall scheme of trying to teach values to youth?

 

When I was tapped out, I'll admit I was very young and small -- about 12 and weighed under 100 pounds. The guy who tapped me out was 20 years old, on his college football team and probably outweighed me by at least my own body weight. Luckily for me he tapped me out like I was made of glass, but if he had wanted to show me the importance of OA with a little force, it would have been easily more memorable than I wanted.

 

DS

[packsaddle]

I have to weigh in on the side of OGE, regarding snipe hunts and similar (OGE, I sat all night once as well, later searched hard for the shelf-stretcher).

But something Fat Old Guy said caught my attention. I don't want to misrepresent his statement but I think that 'weeding out' is something we should not want to do. If anything, we should take the boy whose native suspicions cause him to be shy or retiring and encourage him to be part of the team. Indeed I think we should try to give him the guidance and to help him build the confidence he needs to overcome whatever reason he has for mistrust in others.

[SM406]

I have always been one for a good prank now and then; for instance taking all of my sons somewhere in our small car, letting rip with a good long one and then locking the windows briefly so they can't lower them. As parents we have to get our little victories where we can. However, since I have been a SM, I have taken a more somber tone, since I am there for the well being of all the boys. I am still for fun but from different avenues.

 

SM406

[mk9750]

Victim defined harassment is one of those slippery slope issues, to me. I agree that to some degree, perception is reality. If the victim feels they were harassed, they were harassed. But this has led to a number of very negative changes in our world, including going too far with the right of victims to claim harassment for things that were really meant to be harmless. I'm not saying that where we have gone is wrong, but I think we may have just gone a little too far.

 

On the other hand, we do need to consider what value some of these things have for Scouts. I have been witness to, even condoned, some of the pranks listed here (shorts up the flagpole, singing for lost items), and feel very comfortable that they promote imprtant aspects of the program. In our case, the skivvies going up the pole was actually done by younger Scouts to the older Scouts, and the entire week of back and forth promoted a comraderie among all of the guys, across all age groups, that was well worth the risk of embarassment. We ask Scouts to sing for lost items to help them become responsible for the equipment. Heck, we have a couple of kids who complain when they AREN'T asked to sing for their stuff! We had one boy who was obviously too shy to sing, and the SPL recognized it right away and told the PL who had the boy's stuff to hand it over as an early Christmas present (boys actually CAN recognize when someone is about to be harmed!).

 

My point is that it obviously is wrong to put boys in a position that they could be harmed seriously by a prank. But if done with the right intentions, and monitored to prevent going to far, I think they are important components to a program.

 

OGE, I don't believe you are wrong to feel as you do, but I do think legetimately bad things that happened to you as a youth make you over sensitive to the issue. But that doesn't mean I'd prefer you didn't object: Quite the contrary, who helps us identify when we have crossed the line if someone who has lived the experience isn't permitted to point it out?

 

And lastly, I think that it is very hard to find an instance where the kind of pranks listed above are appropriate for adults to pull on kids. I'm not saying impossible, but tough to imagine. As one poster pointed out, the results of some of these pranks often can be making a trusting boy who desires to please feel distrust and contempt for those who would ask him to do something in the future. I'd rather encourage the boy to continue being that kind of guy, than to risk him changing his attitude.

 

Mark

[packsaddle]

While everyone is weighing their personal preferences regarding when and when not to adhere to policy, don't forget what dsteele said, "Hazing in the Boy Scouts of America (is) prohibited. You can't do it. Period.

 

This includes snipe hunts, encouraging younger Scouts to hang one another's underwear on the camp flag pole, forcing a Scout to sing at flag ceremony to recover his lost item, waving mail in front of other scouts at the dining hall and making them sing for it, etc."

 

That's clear enough for me. See y'all in another topic.

[mk9750]

Pack,

 

I agree that hazing should not be permitted.

 

My difficulty is in how we define hazing. Sending a kid on a snipe hunt is not hazing. Making him stay all night without shelter is hazing. A joke or two at his expense might not be hazing. Making him feel worthless is hazing. Sending his undies up a flagpole is not hazing. Leaving them there all day and making him go without is hazing. Reminding a boy to be responsible by singing is not hazing. Embarassing the boy to the point of losing self esteem is hazing.

 

Obviously, in my scenerio, there is a major flaw: Where is the line? Is it closer to simply making the boy sing, or is it closer to the loss of self esteem? Obviously, it depends on each boy. And because the target moves, it's vital that adults monitor the situation, and err on the side of caution. Sometimes, no amount of fun is safe. And the adult must enforce that if the boys can't differentiate.

 

That would make the easy thing to be that we define all such actrivites as hazing. That's the easy thing to do. But if there is value in some of these activities, and I believe there can be, then we should not lump them all together and disallow them.

 

IMVHO.

 

Mark

[evmori]

packsaddle,

With all dues respect, those things you listed if done in the spirit of fun, aren't hazing.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[frank10]

And lets not forget the worst one of all... that's where you take the new guy and trick him into becoming Scoutmaster by promising it won't be much work and every one will help out... Some times it takes the sap years to catch on and even longer to find a way to get out of it.

 

Only an huur a week...

[dan]

Okay I just read the GTSS, and it states that no physical hazing is allowed.

So now you need to decide what physical means along with hazing.

Now for the snipes hunt (you guys are getting as bad as meryln about ignoring questions)

If you send a boy out into the woods alone how do you later make him follow the buddy system?

(Okay for those of you who do not know what this is, it is in the Boy Scout Handbook)

Now for the underwear up the pole, how in the world would a scout get another scouts underwear?

For those of you who make a scout sing for lost items, do you explain to him up front that he does not have to do this? This is the only way you will know for sure if the scout is okay with this, unless you are mind readers. And I can just about envision the reactions of some of the scouters on this board if a scout every told them no.

I suppose that you think singing for a lost item will build Character, I guess I agree with this, just not sure I like the kind of Character it will build!

MK9750 you say that scouts know where to draw the line, I really think you are mistaken on this. Look at the post by the scout that was doing a snipe hunt and the other boys decided he needed to be duct tape to a tree.

Setting the example

A Scout is ... kind