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As clc5105 noted later the information he had received originally concerning the CR was a rumor and it was nothing like the concerns brought up in there actual meeting.


As far as Rule #1 one CO should not charter a troop and a Crew...no such rule exists in the BSA nor do I believe it should or ever will. The goal is that a CO should use every tool available to it through the BSA to serve the youth of their organization of community.


Charter multiple units is not the problem, selecting people who can properly lead and administrate them is the problem. But we have seen that that is a problem in COs with only one unit as well.



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Yah, for all those who care about such minutia, da COR can dual register as either an MC or CC or ScoutParent unit coordinator, not just CC, and yeh will find in the real world that it isn't uncommon for a CO to designate different CORs for different levels of program. Councils will approve this if asked. Only fair, eh, so as to give da CO proportionate representation. Also makes sense, especially for schools and churches and such, where often different people deal with elementary vs. secondary programmin'.


I agree with both BobWhite and jblake, eh? I've seen plenty of COs that charter both troops and crews do it successfully, if da CO has a commitment to runnin' 'em as separate and distinct programs, OR if da CO has a commitment to runnin' 'em as tightly coordinated programs. Either way, each program knows where it fits.


Where things are a problem, IMO, is when a crew is a sorta half-spinoff of a troop, put together by one group of boys/parents (especially parents with daughters ;)). That kind of gets into what I think jblake is talkin' about - the SM's feelin' boys are being "stolen" and the like. Happens in an "absent" CO most often. As jblake describes, da crew in such a situation needs to have a vision of its own, independent of the troop.


Personally, I don't like da criss-crossin' of registrations at any level. I don't think commissioners should also be unit scouters, I'd try to clean up this bit with a CR for one unit bein' a SM for another. Can't say I like district positions bein' held by too many unit scouters either, or even unit leaders who split time at multiple levels. Just tends to confuse everyone, and cause even the best people to mix up their roles. Cub leaders who also work Boy Scouting tend to make Boy Scouting more like Cubs (or vice versa); Boy Scout leaders who jump to Venturing tend to mess up Venturing by makin' it like Boy Scouting. Just MHO, but I think it's best for folks to choose a job or two to do well rather than criss-crossin'. Not always possible, but worth workin' toward.



(This message has been edited by Beavah)

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The Councils have no authority to designate multiple CRs for the same CO. Each charter organization gets one vote on the the district and council they do not get more votes based on having more units.


You can find the fact that there is only one CR in resources identified in my previous post.


One CR represents the entire family of Scouting programs chartered to the CO. They are the representative of the Charter organization to the units and to the council/district, and they represent the council and district to the unit and the Chareter organmization.


You will find this explained in the Troop Committee Guide, the Cub Scout Leader Book, and the Venturing Leader Handbook, as well as in the Charter Organization Representative training brochure.


Knowing and understanding the role of the CR would be helpful to anyone involved in chartering or re-chartering units, such as commissioners.

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While 1 CO = 1 COR may be the rule, I know for a fact that one CO had 3 separate CORs. The pack at this church had one unit number and a COR/CC. The troop that the church chartered had a different number, and a different COR/CC. the Pack's COR/CC was a MC of the troop though. THEN the Venture crew that was created had the SM of the troop as COR/CC and the COR/CC of the troop as the crew adviser. The crew did have the same number as the troop though.


All I could say was great CO, Great leaders, and it worked out.


Not to change the subject, but how many CORs go to District Committee meetings? I ask because in all my 13 years as a district scouter, both volunteer and professional, in 3 different councils, I have only seen 1 COR at a meeting, and he was the District Chairman. I never saw them when I was a volunteer the first go around, could never get them to come to a meeting as professional, and only saw the one above the second time around as a volunteer.

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Eppur Si Muove - Galileo Galilei


Perhaps it shouldn't be, but nevertheless it is. Da real world is funny that way sometimes.


I imagine an SE or a Commish who is goin' to tell da pastor of the largest charterin' org. in the district he can't do that isn't understandin' the role of a Commish or SE very well. :)


COs get to choose how they administer things, eh? Technically, every Catholic unit in an area is chartered to one corporation - the corporation sole of da diocesan bishop. But they create administrative sub-entities as parishes and schools and whatnot, and we treat each administrative sub-entity as a separate CO, though legally it really isn't. No different for a public school system (back in those days) when we had one public entity (the school district), but recognized individual subdivisions as separate COs. No different from a pastor who wants his elementary school religious ed person to be COR for da pack, and his teen youth group leader to be COR for da troop. Of course we do that! Yeh just enter 'em into ScoutNet as two organizations with da same name and address (or names like "First Methodist Teen Program" and "First Methodist Elementary Program").


Easier than tryin' to stop da planets from movin', eh? Happens all da time, all over da country.




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The unit numbers of units within a single CO are not required to be the same.


The number of CRs that attend any given meeting is not a relevent issue to how many CRs a single CO can have.


When it comes to unit charters Parishes do not fall under one corportaion Diocese nor does each school within a school district.


The rules are clear and easy to find.


From the opening page of The BSA Chartered Organization Representative #3318D


The following official description of a chartered organization representative is found in the current revision of the Rules and reguulations of the Boy Scouts of America, Refer to Article Vi, Local Councils, Section 3, Chartered Organization Representative Clause 7, Which reads, "In the teritory supervised by the local councis each charter organization hsal appoint a volunteer, other than the unit leader or assistant unit leader, as its charter organization representative to represent the it as a member of the district committee and a voting member of the local council"


This information is also found in Training the Charter Organization Representative, No. 4-1113


So you see each CO chooses A single respresentative. Need more? Okay.


Page 2, Under the heading "Your Responsibilities as a Charter Organization Representative"


Your responsibilities fall into the folowing three areas

1) You head the "Scouting Department" in your organization, and are responsible for the success of its Scouting Units.


Notice, 1 Co, 1 CR, 1 "scouting department" for all its units.


Still need more? Okay


Page 4 "The Chareter Organization Representatives Tasks'


You head the "Scouting department". The person incharge of your organization and its governing group will look to you as the person responsible for the success of their Scouting program.

Your Department is made of the committees and unit leaders of each of your Scouting units


So you have a choice. If you want to know and follow the Scouting program you can believe what Beavah says or what the BSA says. If it was the Beavah Scouts of America then I would say to follow Beavah.


But it's not! Pretty much anything you need to know to follow the BSA program can be easily found in the training and resources of the BSA. Unlike Beavah I have never said "do what I say". I have said here is what the BSA says, and if your intent is to follow the BSA program then here is the information.


Now I don't know how they teach Commissioning up there is the big city, but here in the little old town I live in we are taught that for a commissioner to be effective you don't need to know all the right answers, you just need to know where to find all the right answers. The correct information about the BSA program, procedures and rules of the BSA are found in the resources of the BSA and not in any one person's opinion or practices. eh?













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editorial correction.


There line "Your department is made of the committees and unit leaders of each of your departments" should have ended in quotes to mark the closing of the section reprinted from the manual.



The next three paragraphs should not be in italics.


Thank you



Oe more thing, from The Cub Scout Leader Book, the last line in the job description for the Charter Organization Representative.


"If the chartering organization has more than one unit, one representative serves them all."


The BSA program is not what any one person says it is, it is what the BSA says it is.

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Yah, I reckon this is what Eamonn and BadenP are talkin' about, eh?


"You can believe what Beavah says or what da BSA says." "If it was da Beavah Scouts of America" and all that. I reckon those kinds of personal jabs aren't all that welcome for most folks. I don't mind so much, it's kinda funny.


Truth is, BobWhite is right about da materials, but not right about the practical execution of those materials - how they are really interpreted by the BSA in its day-to-day operations. In the day to day world of Scouting, one Catholic diocese does get more than one COR, even though they are a single corporation/organization. We let the COs tell us what they consider to be an organization, eh? And if they want to treat their elementary program and their secondary program as different, or their school and youth program, or their church and their mens' group, then we do that. Da CO is the customer, and the customer is always right :).


So as Eagle92 describes, there are single entities with multiple CORs all over da place. That doesn't change da materials or make 'em wrong. It just explains how they are practically applied, by those folks with wreaths and such who have that duty in da BSA.


No need for da personal digs. Same information, just different perspectives on it.




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Here is where we differ Beavah.


I don't say that I am right about the topic. I am not even trying to prove I am right. Me being right or wrong "personally" is irrelevant to any topic.


I am sharing what the BSA materials says is right and since the topic is the BSA program then the BSA material is right, and that is what matters.


You say 'that is not what happens in the real world'. So what?!


All you are really saying is that in the relatively few instances you have seen, people where not following the program. That does not make their actions right. Have you considered that some of these folks do it wrong because folks such as you have told them the wrong information? By not following the actually BSA program materials and OFFICIAL resources you create far more problems that you resolve?


You cannot correctly and effectively Commission if your sole source of how to do the program is by what you have seen other people do. You have a responsibility to share accurate information from the BSA about the BSA program.


I have seen a number of adult leaders use an axe incorrectly and hurt themselves. Should that now be how we train people to use an axe simply because that is what we have observed people in the "real world" do it.


That would be incredibly irresponsible. To represent the BSA by telling people what you have seen others do rather than by sharing the correct information from the BSA resources and training is no less irresponsible.


And that is where we differ. I base my information from the official training and resources of the BSA, You base yours on your opinion of what you have seen units do.


There is a right and a wrong way to this. And the BSA says that each CO has one and only one CR that represents the entire scouting department for the CO. The BSA is right, it's their program and their rules.


You say that is not what you have seen, well what you have seen is wrong. What you have shared with other is the wrong. You are using the methods you have seen rather than share the right information that is available through the BSA, information that you are supposed to know how to find as a commissioner.


You are not wrong because I say you are wrong, You are wrong because the BSA determines what is right, and your opinions that you share and teach to others are frequently in direct conflict to the rules and Methods of the BSA.


And that sir is where we differ. And if you are to be allowed to give the wrong information on this forum, then I would hope that Terry and the moderators will allow at least one person to share the official BSA program, and then at least others can choose the Scouting way or your way.


I hope for the sake of the youth that serve that they would choose the Scouting way.



(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Semantics are not at issue here. No one has questioned any semantics. Beavah and I have not disagreed on the meaning of any word. Our disagreement is based only who and what determines the BSA's program Methods, polices, and procedures.


Moderate this out for us OGE. The BSA says in its Rules and Regulations that each Charter Organization has 1 Charter Organization Represenative for its entire scouting department no matter if they hold 1 or multiple charters. And the BSA says that the Scoutmaster cannot be the CR.


Beavah says that, based on his observations of the real world, that charter organizations can have a CR for each unit they charter.


Would you say the BSA is correct OFE, or that the units that Beavah is basing his opinion on are correct? Because this is not between me and Beavah, this is about what the BSA says the program is and what Beavah and the units he has observed say the program is.


Because there is no middle ground here, either the BSA is the authority on BSA rules, or induividual volunteer opinions are the authority.


You tell us if the question of the thread has been answered and by whom, the documents of the BSA or Beavah's opinion.


I for one am really curious how you see this.





Or do you see the(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Yup it's semantics.


I would agree that it should be one COR per chartering organization. I think Beavah would agree. I think what Beavah is saying is there are chartered organizations that have more than one unit they have different COR's whether they can or not. Is that correct Beavah?

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Tell you what, perhaps semantics wasnt the correct word. At times I do not have the command of the English language that I wish I had, otherwise this might not be the sentence I was thinking of.


If I had the command of the English Language I desire I would be able to say something that would cause all the combatants to drop their weapons, smack their collective foreheads, exclaim "What are we doing" and all be friends.


But, alas that ain't gonna happen. BobWhite, you are the Rules and Regulations person, and there isnt anything wrong with that, it's needed. BSA rules and regulations exist for a purpose


Beavah is more of the lets look at the situation and see how the Mission, Vision and Values of the organization fits in with what we are doing, and if these three aren't compromised, it's really no big deal (I think I have that right Beavah, otherwise let me know)


What do you want me to do? Pick a side? I have had issues with both your styles and am trying to learn to live with them. Perhaps simply stating your opinions with out referencing anyone else would be a good start.


My point in asking of the initial question had been answered was because no one asked how many COR's an instution could have was not asked.

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Don't pick sides OGE, tell us the truth, What is the BSA's rule regarding the number of Charter Organization Representatives that a CO can have.


Don't pick a side, simply determine right from wrong. I am not asking if I am right, I am asking you if the BSA is right about the rules of the BSA.


Even BSA Aims, Methods, and Mission have a right and a wrong. They are specific elements, thers is no variation. Driving a mini-van is not a method of the BSA even if Beavah were to see a lot of Scout leaders driving mini-vans.


The Vision, Mission, and Values of Scouting are specific things and they are determioned by the BSA not by personal opinion. There is a right and a wrong as to what they are. And while there are multiple ways to achieve them, violating the rules is not one of those ways.


This is not about opinion, this is about scout leaders having an obligation to follow the scouting program, and about people who train and support the units having the obligation to represent the program truthfully and accurately.


My "style" Is that I post what the BSA program says it is, as oppossed to what my personal version of it is based on based what I do now, or what I used to in the past, or what I see other units doing outside of the program rules.


You do not discuss the rule on how many strikes in a baseball game make for an out, and then go with what the vocal majority says. You look at the rule book that gives the structure to the game and it says three, so the answer is three.


You don't debate what the rules of the BSA are, you look at them and they give you the answer. Whether you agree with them not is not the question. Whether you obey them or not is a separate issue.


What is rule?


Buy the way I am not a rules guy, I am just another unit leader who knows and follows the program and has not had the problems in over thirty years of unit leadership that are posted on this forum in a single day. I have met and worked with other scouters who know and use the scouting program who have not had the myriad of ailments and confusion that regularly plague posters on this forum.


That's because most problems here are caused by people not being trained or not following the traing, or now it seems being trained by people who do not teach the actual information.


I am here to be a least one voice showing them where to go to get the right BSA info about the BSA program. Because I want them to have fun and I want the youth they serve to have a great scouting experience based on the BSA program, not on my personal opinions.


If that contrast angers those who want to be listened to because they feel their personal credentials are more important that the resources of the BSA so be it.


You wouldn't fault a minister for knowing the contents of the Bible, or a Lawyer for knowing the law, or a Plumber for knowing the right tools for the job. But on this forum, God help the Scouter who knows the contents of the BSA program.


IF clc's scoutmaster were not also the CR in violation of the BSA policy then there would have been no issue. Someone gave his committees and leaders bad information. Perhaps it was a Commissioner who went by his opinion rather than the BSA program.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Gossip, gossip, gossip. That appears to be the root of the original problem.


Is there anyone who physically checks the charters or a software program that checks charters to prevent such a situation from occurring? In the absence of this, and in this particular situation, one solution is to have the IH, COR(s), SM/CM/VA, and all the CCs, in one place at one time with the DE and a Commissioner to explain what is what and who fills in which slot on the org chart. Follow the program, stay organized, don't rush the details. This is also the perfect time for everyone to come together on vision, micro and macro, and policies/bylaws.


Sometimes we get so down in the weeds on our own issue, that we fail to see the larger picture. That's a human fallibility. As long as everyone can take a breath and a step back, then discuss things rationally and calmly, it can be worked out.


I hope things have worked out for clc5105.





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