Adult Leader Drama, Integrity and Ethics Very Long

[Hawkrod 10]

I am not sure where this should go but the following involves Scouters at a District and Council level so here goes:

 

I am a volunteer with a unit that has had problems over the years with several "interesting" parents/leaders. They usually burn themselves out or go away when other parents/leaders fail to agree with them. Recently we have had two very "interesting" individuals, who were having issues in other units, join our unit and after a short but painful experience left our unit. The committee felt this was for the best and put it behind us. Unfortunately the other parties were not of a like mind. It started out very slowly but started to gain momentum. We found out that these people were spreading false rumors about members of our unit, our finances and much more. In hopes that they would eventually get bored we tried desperately to ignore the issue but unfortunately these people have been very prolific in spreading their falsehoods and even more unfortunately these people are also very involved at both District and Council levels. One of the individuals is an ex-professional (and after talking with other pro's I now comprehend that it wasn't just "downsizing" as we were led to believe). These individuals have now spread a lot of bad information around and it finally got to the point where the unit leadership was forced to respond. During the course of action, several improprieties surfaced regarding these individuals (as it usually does, it is a pattern of behavior) and the committee brought it to the DE. The DE asked the committee to list out the issues and document them and then forward copies to the key three. Upon doing this, the key three has arranged to have a meeting to arbitrate the differences between the unit and the individuals. The CC has contacted the key three and told them that this is not a "dispute", rather it is a list of charges of violations. The key three has decided that they will not handle it as charges. What does the committee do now? There is supporting documentation for falsifying adult leader awards (the ex-pro actually signed the documents as the DE and as the CC of our unit and was neither so the council person contacted our CC and returned the forged document). We have also had parents coming out of the woodwork with other allegations including one of these individuals having a graphic conversation about birth control and personal protection at an event after everyone else was asleep (it was very one on one. The childs parent has already taken this to the SE and so it is being address separately). Our committee has also now heard from other units and district staff regarding issues but are not being allowed to air the issues as it is not firsthand and the other parties will not be allowed to participate as only two people are going to be allowed to represent our unit at the arbitration. When there are actual issues regarding like when these people are training and teaching other leaders and their performance is abysmal (they conducted Scoutmaster and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills in less than 12 hours by cutting out parts that "they knew the leaders would do on their own or already knew". They completely eliminated first aid! I do realize that you can gloss over and condense some areas in these courses IF the participants have experience and knowledge but many of the leaders there had never had any training and were brand new! They are also falsifying paperwork and failing to perform, yelling at children (not just "stop that" or something of that nature, actually calling a child a f*****g thug or piece of s*** on many documented occasions) what is the process? Who do you go to? Is there any forms or directions? I have spent way too many hours on the web looking for answers. These people are no longer in our unit but the behavior has actually gotten worse and they are also now Lone Scouting their sons because of "personal issues". The sad part is their boys need the program so bad but it is no longer about the boys, it is now about the parents. Their entire social life is now wrapped up in being Scouting volunteers and for some reason the leadership does not see or is looking past the issues. Several parents and myself are at our wits end by the way this is being handled (or specifically not being handled. What do we do? TIA Hawkrod(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

[Basementdweller 608]

Ya know you can throw them out??????? Right??????

 

the one on one taking about contraceptives is probably enough. The cussing and what not in front of the boys is more than enough.

 

 

I would just kick them out. Well have the committee vote on it.

 

I have spent too much time with Parent and leader drama to ever deal with it again.

[ScoutNut 147]

They are no longer members of your unit. Your unit now has very little, if anything at all, to say about their membership in the BSA.

 

Where has your Charter Organization been during all of this? Why didn't your CO, as the owner of your unit, and your COR, as a member of your Council and District Committee, speak to your SE (not the DE) about this long ago?

 

If there are youth protection issues with these adults it is up to the SE to handle.

 

If they are bad trainers, it is up to the District, and Council, Training Chairs to take them off of their training staff.

 

The issue with falsifying paperwork for leader awards seems to have been caught by your District and handled.

 

If other units are having problems with these adults, it is up to those units, and their Charter Organizations, to make a complaint to council - not you.

 

I suggest your unit concentrate on providing a great BSA Scouting program to its Scouts, and let your Council deal with its own problems outside of your unit. If these people are causing trouble for, or harming, your boys in some way, it is up to your COR, and IH to talk to the SE, and decide what else, if anything, they want to do about it.

[shortridge 184]

They're gone from your unit. You can ignore them to your heart's content. You do not need to go to "arbitration" or respond to anything. Let the district and council deal with them now. The YP issues are being dealt with by the SE as they should be; the incompetent training is a district or council issue. None of the issues you've described needs to be handled by your committee.

 

By participating in this "arbitration," all you're doing is giving these jackanapes power over you. Don't give them the satisfaction.

[Hawkrod 10]

Thank you all for your input. Unfortunately the issues relate directly to our unit at both District and Council levels as it affects our ability to participate in functions at those levels. Also note that the units make up the District and the Council and thus it is all of our responsibilities. The only thing I have learned from this is there does not seem to be any way to keep things above board and there are people who ingratiate themselves to such a degree that they have power over what you do. I participated in the arbitration this evening and the results were dismal to say the least. The profanity issue was swept aside as soon as the other party admitted it was true but she had said she was sorry. The fact that she has verbally abused children on several occasions was wiped clean. I know she will continue and so I will not be able to allow our unit to participate in stuff like day camp, District pinewood derby and many others events because of her presence at events. The other person simply lied. Because it was held as an arbitration there was no consequences and certainly no remorse. The end result is that the behavior will not stop and more kids will suffer as ours have. I truly believe in this program but my strength is being tested, Hawkrod

[moosetracker 132]

With verbal or mental abuse of children, I am unsure how true this is or if a DE was ignoring my complaint and trying to pacify me, but this is my expirience with it.

 

Mine was at a troop level, but the SM there was abusive in that the troop would take in 20 -35 crossover scouts a year.. In about a month the SM would choose the 10 "keepers".. The rest were yelled at, not invited to events and their progress to Eagle was made more difficult.. My son wasn't the "chosen" few. So we left the troop and went to another, but most kids just dropped out, all with lower self-esteem then when they came to the troop.

 

I talked to the DE about it, I could tell he hated the SM very much.. He started out saying something about he would like nothing better then to kick him out got enough through the sentence then he stopped himself and just looked like his face was going to explode before he got himself in check.. But, he said to me that he could do nothing about the charges until there was three seprate complaints on the issue.. I kept enough tabs on the troop through a friend still in it.. I knew who complaint # 2 was it was by a unit commissioner (not sure if he was that troops UC, but he had been ours, and his son was in that troop).. Nothing happened. Then complaint # 3 occured..

 

People from the council level came in asked questions of the others in the unit, (People who for some reason feared the district & council level as really scary figure heads and would not go to them with their complaints).. The SM was then permenantly banned from being a registered BSA volunteer..

 

They youth protection on a sexual nature should be dealt with on an immediate one complaint issue.. But the verbal and mental abuse may be needing the 3 strikes and your out rule. They might be considering your unit as a single strike...

 

Now others can tell me how wrong I am, I can not see the value of this waiting for 3 complaints to move on serious charges, but I can only relate what I was told, and then what I witnessed.

[shortridge 184]

The details you've provided make it difficult for me to understand how one person's presence or mere involvement in district activities would be enough to curtail your pack's involvement in those activities. Swearing at kids, falsifying training and lying on records - none of that affects your pack any longer. The YP violation is being handled separately, as it should be. What exactly did they say or do that makes you want to keep all your Cubs and parents away from any potential contact with them?

 

What is your position with the pack? Unless you're the CM, CC or COR, you really don't have the ability to forbid your pack from participating in activities. Nor can you prohibit individual members from going to day camp, for example. Are you really willing to say "We're not going to day camp or PWD"? Seems to me that you then would have to explain why - which opens up the can of worms all over again.

 

You've given these people incredible power over you. That's probably exactly what they want. Only you can take it away from them by refusing to let them control your Scouting program.

 

As an alternative, if your entire pack leadership and CO is committed to not having anything to do with these people, attend day camp in another district. Don't cheat your kids of a fun time because adults are behaving badly.

[Hawkrod 10]

Thanks again to all and just to be brief, I have not shared all details, only those that I felt were specifically pertinent (there is unfortunately many more issues and complaints from other units). I am the COR and the CO has been involved with the this process since things came to light (we try to be very transparent). These individuals have ingratiated themselves very well. I was shocked at the arbitration when a letter was presented from another unit that said we had offended and intimidated their leader when I had asked him to hold off judgement on the issues until after this was concluded. It was not as if we had asked him to take sides, we specifically did not, we simply did not wish to discuss issues that he was not directly party to but unfortunately the other parties lobbied for favor when we would not and now an interunit function that we had done in the past is off the table. These people are well entrenched and are now directly affecting our unit while not in it. Hawkrod

[Basementdweller 608]

I missed the part where they were all ready gone

 

Who cares what anyone outside your unit thinks or feels?

 

Honestly, you got involved with scouting for your son. I would simply concentrate on putting on the best possible program for them. If it bothers you that much at the district level, then go out of district for day camp and out of council for resident camp.

 

No biggy.

 

You and your leadership are empowering the "evil doers". Remove their power and ignore them.

 

when asked about the situation, politely say something along the lines of "thanks for your interest but it really isn't any of your business or we have handled the situation" and drop it.

 

We had a toxic leader and that is how we handled it, it took 24 months for it to go away and we still get asked about it from time to time.

 

Some people thrive on Drama, I don't, Let me just work my program.

[ScoutNut 147]

If you are not going to tell the entire story, all we have to go by is what you have told us. That is not much.

 

As COR, you should do your job, and attend District, and Council, Committee meetings. That is where you can have direct input on what your District/Council does.

 

As for the verbal abuse, it is hard to prove verbal abuse in the best of circumstances. In your case, all you have is the adults swearing at the youth once or twice. Nasty, but not necessarily verbal abuse.

 

As others have said, if these people are on staff at a District/Council event, simply ignore them. If they say anything rude, or x-rated, to one of your youth - immediately - take that youth (and their parent if available) to talk to the director of the program. Include it on any comment form at the end of the program.

 

Also, as others have said, you are not locked into attending only activities put on by your District. Look at attending events in other Districts, or even other councils. This includes trainings.

 

While units do make up a council, it is not the job of one of those units to police the others. It is not your call to tell another unit what to do. It is not your call to even request it nicely. It is not your unit. Losing an inter-unit activity was your fault, not the fault of these other adults. If these "unsavory" adults are serving on this other unit, why would you want to do an activity with them?

 

You need to concentrate on your Charter Organization's Pack. You need to make sure the leaders who are members of your Pack give the Cub Scouts in your Pack the best program they can. That is what your main goal should be.(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

[Hawkrod 10]

Thank you for your input. I did not post here to get sympathy or support. I think maybe it has been misunderstood, our unit is one of the most successful and largest in the area and we can provide program by ourselves as we have done so often in the past. I am trying to determine which is the correct official way to report these types of issues. Now that we have had our first meeting on the issue I have found that at a District level nothing will be done even in the face of admission of guilt. As I noted, during the meeting one person did admit that there has been innapropriate language and calling of names directly to children. I had assumed it would have been denied but it wasn't, it was excused despite several instances. I will take that admission to the SE along with other YP issues that have also arisen. The person is the Cub RT Commissioner and also a Day Camp staff member which is a bigger part of the issue. I recognize that there are always he-said she-said disputes but I was not posting to air the issues (which is why I abbreviated as much as possible) but to find out what the proper proceedure is. It is becoming apparent that having another meeting with the SE is imminent. Unfortunately it is not as simple as I had hoped that there would be a reporting document or format to follow. The Key Three in our District specifically do not want this to become a bigger issue and would rather quash it despite what we feel are serious allegations. They refused to even hear from any other party including CC's from other units, they required that we gather the information and present it to them and only two people were allowed to go to the meeting. By the end of teh meeting it was apparent that the other parties can behave as they choose without repercussion from the District. People warned me in advance that these people are "untouchable" and now I am begining to believe it. Hawkrod

[gcnphkr 11]

What exactly are you trying to accomplish? If it is simply prevent them from holding district positions then you and the CORs from the other effected units just need to go to the next district committee meetings and make this part of the agenda. Don't allow the DCC to adjourn the meeting until it has been discussed and a determination of the committee has been made. I have a hard time imagining 3 or 4 CORs showing up at a meeting to discuss this not being taken seriously. There is nothing to prevent this. The chair cannot say, "We discussed this at the arbitration and the matter is closed" unless the majority of the VOTING members of the district committee present agree and vote to adjourn.

 

In my experience, most of the people that attend district committee meetings are not voting members (although they may think they are). Voting members are CORs, the District Committee Chair and Vice-Chairs, the District Commissioner, ELECTED district members and council committee members that live in the district. Often the various district positions (Advancement, Training, Roundtable Commissioners, etc.) are appointed, not elected positions, and have no vote. To be successful here you need to know the rules and be able to show them as well as know who is who on the committee.

 

You mentioned that the DE asked the committee to document the issues. Was this the district or unit committee? You also implied that the DE is supportive of your efforts. He should know the other units that has issues and can help get their CORs to the meeting.

 

Note, this is a BIG DEAL. It could make you many enemies and you still might not get what you want out of it. You need to decide if it is really worth it to you, the unit and the district.

[CalicoPenn 729]

Your the COR of one of the largest and most successful units in the District you say?

 

So what do you want to happen? Want these people gone? Want them put into a position where they will never impact your unit again?

 

If I were COR of one of the largest and most successful units, and felt the District wasn't attending appropriately to my complaints, I would make one last call - to the SE - and tell him/her that until this matter was resolved to my satisfaction, the Chartering Organization's units would no longer participate in Friends of Scouting, or in Popcorn Sales, or in any District or Council event, and would be looking for Out Of Council camps to attend. If there is one thing that SE's respond pretty quickly to, it's a potential threat to their metrics.

 

 

[Hawkrod 10]

Thank you both, jet526 that was basically what I was looking for. I do have statement from other COR's but did not know we could do that. I am not the only involved party, just the most visible due to our units strengths. CalicoPenn, you sound just like my CC. We have been top in popcorn sales for several years and even in this tough economy came out far ahead of anybody else and the first thing the CC and CM said was we will find money somewhere else! I am not quite that punative myself and I do expect we will participate but time will tell. As far as what we want to see? We simply do not want these people in a position of authority/responsibilty over members outside of their units. Their behavior has left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and it just can't go on. Hawkrod

[ScoutNut 147]

As we have, repeatedly, told you, every COR is a member of the District Committee. Part of their job as COR is to attend District Committee meetings. The District Committee meeting is where your Charter Organization's voice should be heard.

 

A "statement" to you, from other COR's, is not enough. As stated previously, you are responsible for only your CO's units, not the units of other CO's. The other COR's who have issues with these leaders need to get themselves, in person, to the next District Committee meeting.

 

Multiple COR's (not CC's, they have no place in this), in person, all with similar complaints, attending the District Committee meeting, will get the attention of the District.