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its baaackk.... BSA policy on homosexuals and leadership

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RememberSchiff, well FLAGS Active Support Unit have rainbow neckers, and it's entirely possible that some of us will be there!


I'm confident that the great majority of American Scouters at the Jamboree would be welcoming and see that we have more in common as Scouts than there is which divides us.


There was a "Scouting Over the Rainbow" event at WSJ in Sweden



(This message has been edited by DuncanHill)

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I have no idea what the feelings of the great majority of American Scouter's might be.

I'm guessing that almost all of the professionals who work for the BSA know and are aware that the stance taken on homosexuals is not very popular with a lot of people. How many people? I really have no idea.

I've met and talked with people who are with the BSA on this one and people who are not.

The BSA has spent a lot of money defending this policy and has over the years lost a lot of good will.


Not so long ago Kentucky Fried Chicken came out with that wasn't fried.

Have to admit that I don't know that much about the workings of the Kentucky Fried Chicken company. So while I might guess why they would want to mess with something that seemed to work is beyond me.

The Kentucky Fried Chicken company started a big ad campaign selling this new not fried chicken.

A lot of the people who owned franchises were not happy and ended up starting their own ads selling the fried birds.

I feel if someone or some group wants the BSA to change they need to work on the organizations that make up the membership of the BSA.

I don't see some groups ever wanting to come out and support a change, but maybe if enough of the not so big organizations were to make a fuss the bigger organizations might reluctantly just follow.


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I was just going to say "ick" to pink, and state rainbow is better, then I flipped to the next page and Duncan had already done it for me.


Eamonn - Doubt if a fuss from the "not so big" will make a change. Look at the Catholics fight over contraceptives in the health bill.. And that is with more the 80% or their own congragation using them and thinking it is an outdated concept.


So Duncan, you are having the same battle with same-sex marriage as we are?.. Sounds like some of where you are is not much more advanced then the US.. Your Scouting has us beat, and that is because your Scouting movement did not get into bed with religion as we did.. I do think we would be further along if not for that.


Our BSA works real hard to teach our scouts that they should be open to diversity.. (Then they talk about everything under the sun except for the sexual orientation and atheists which they will not tolerate.).. If pushed into a corner they may come up with something silly like we respect them, as long as they are not in our units, teaching our scouts..


Then they teach the adult Leaders that they must be role models, and young people can sense hypocracy and will not respect you for it..


Sorry, teaching acceptancance to diversity with a (lets tiptoe over these subjects) or with a (Except for these two groups).. Is Hypocrisy.. And guess what the scouts see it, and do not respect it. Doctor, heal thy self.

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Well, both the Westminster government and the Scottish government have said they want to allow gay civil marriage, as I've mentioned above different religious groups have taken different positions. In the last few days there've been stories in the news about Catholic schools (state funded, but subject to control by the Catholic church) telling pupils to sign a petition against equal marriage. This is now being looked into by the government as it may be a breach of laws preventing schools pushing one side only of a political issue.


There is an ongoing debate in British Scouting about the wording of the Promise and whether or not we should allow atheists to be leaders (I think there is another thread here about that).


You're absolutely right about young people being able to spot hypocrisy, and not respecting those who are hypocrites.

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Our Unitarian church is open to it also, and the Episcopalian are voting on it soon, people think it will be a favorable vote, but you can always be surprised, and everyone does foresee their side winning so it depends on who you talk to I guess.. Other Liberal churches are open to it.. We have 8 states who have accepted same-sex marriages (I believe other have civil unions.) My state is one, though they tried to overturn it just last month (and lost).. Yippee.. Doesn't mean they have given up trying although polls state the majority want to keep same-sex marriages.



I wanted to add onto the generational thing..


If you look at how we are moving on the racial issue, which in our country had a setback due to an issue in Florida..


My mothers generation was raised predjudice, my mother made a concious effort to not raise us that way, but knew she could only change herself through constantly checking her unconcious tendandancy.. Once or twice she said something that shocked me. Like once she yelled a racial slur to some driver who almost hit her..


I was raised in a mixed generation. My mother tried to raise me without predjudice, but my generation was a mix of being racial and not being racial. I know I could never bring myself to date or marry a black due to social pressures. But, I had many friends who were black. My sister did though. And I had to talk to my mother when she called my very worried about it.. "Well Mom, you raised us not to be predjudice. I guess you did a good job." Is what I said, but I also knew she did a better job with my sister then me, because I still had some prejudice, as I would not date a black man.


This current generation, I believe is much more accepting of race. But, with sexual orientation, they are where my generation was.. Homosexuals can find good friendships of people who do not care, but also can be bullied in schools.. The generation is split on how they react to it.. My generation is more accepting of it, but I think it is like my mother was with black people.. We were raised to be prejudice. So it takes us looking at things logically and meeting very nice homosexuals to see things differently.. But we still have to combat the beliefs we were raised with.. Others in my generation will not overcome the prejudice they were taught at birth, and forget teaching my mothers generation to change.

(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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Basement - Yes and No..


It is a local decision, if your local area decides to ignore the rule. But, since the rule is in place all it takes is for someone, who disagrees with the local decision, to place a call higher up the chain, for them to come down and kick the person out.. As what happened with this Den Leader..


It only truely becomes a local decision when National respects amd accepts your decision.

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I can easily see how the BSA could adapt to allowing homosexuals as leaders, if they allowed it to be up to the CO, just like they do women in leadership. That said, I don't see how we can get around the Scout Oath in terms of allowing atheists as leaders.

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As I have stated before, the only problem I see with allowing atheist in, is the fact that SOME (not all) are intolerant of those who are religious.


I would not mind something similar to the Pledge, where it is acceptable for them either remain quiet for the line about God (and other scouts learn to be reverent and tolerant of their lack of belief).. Or a unit that is all athiests per their CO's veiws, simply not having the line..


But, there is too much news about groups that let athiests in only to a year later have the atheist patition for them to drop the line from the pledge, and any thing else religious in order to cater to their belief (without giving a second thought to the fact they are not being tolerent of the beliefs of those around them)..


This is what will hold atheists back from being accepted in. If the homosexuals had some hidden agenda to change the Scouts then they too would have more difficulty being accepted. But, they only agenda they have is up front. That is to be accepted.

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moose the problem you describe about atheist is the same problem with gay scouters...


If an Adult is gay or atheist and is silent about it how do you know????


If they have rainbow stickers all over their car and act the part then shame on them.....just as an atheist showing out about god in the oath or making a big deal about a scouts own.


I am not gay, but I also don't have I love women on my truck, I believe in god but don't have the real men love jesus sticker either.....

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Thanks for posting the link, Pack - I've added my signature.


There's an old saying - there's no such thing as bad publicity. Well, actually there is - and this is bad publicity for the BSA as it does make it appear as if the BSA is mired in a past that's not going to come back. Heck, when the Mormons, which funded approximately 40% of the Proposition 8 fight in California, comes out in favor, a few years later in support of legislation in Utah to ban discrimination against gays and lesbians in housing and employment, and when Archie Comics, that bastion of American Wholesomeness, introduces a gay character, giving him his own comic book, and marrying him off as an adult/soldier in another series, you know the tide has turned.


This isn't a James Dale, who was sympathetic enough as an Eagle Scout who was liked and respected by his unit - this is a Mother, who joined with her 7-year old son. This is sympathy plus. I just don't see most of the public sympathizing with the BSA's standard arguments in cases like these - and I suspect there will be more like this - particularly when more and more people are believing it is just not morally straight to discriminate against anyone.



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I guess I don't see it the same way you do Basement.


I see the bumper stickers what-not for gay-rights as simply a request for Equal treatment.. Same as I would veiw, a womens-rights sticker, or a racial equality sticker..


Doesn't mean they want to convert us all to women, blacks or gays.. But, to except them for who they are.


I have the same respect for the athiest, who also simply wants to be treated equally.


I do though see at problem with the athiests who want to stamp out religious views in everything. This is not equal rights, this is demanding that everyone follows their viewpoint and rules.


If duncan is going to tell me that allowing in homosexuals means everyone must hike in highheel boots wearing a gold lemay uniform.. Well, then they would not be welcomed either..


(And before Duncan hits me, I know I depicted a sterio-type, worst case example. Probably not the homosexuals who would be interested in camping.. I simply did it to prove a point. For a homosexual that looks and acts the same as me, I have no idea what would be a secret agenda for change example.)


Bottom line : I know no homosexual who wants to rid the world of heterosexuals.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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As Calico noted, this isn't the fist time a well liked and respected member has been kicked out and won't be the last. But as more and more states legalized gay marriages, gay unions, recognize gay unions, as more private companies give domestic partner benefits, etc. there will be more and more families in this situation. BSA will need to adapt or become recognized as an organization out of step with the rest of society.


I see Mitt Romney seems to think gays are capable of being good leaders and as being as good a citizen as anyone else given his recent appointment for foreign policy advisor. As Cal says, if a Mormon, leading Presidential candidate can recognize this, seems like the BSA could, and eventually will.


The easiest way is simply to allow local option for the COs, the same way the do with women. I suspect it won't happen with a lot of fanfare, it will be decided in one of those double secret boad meetings and the next time someone calls with a complaint, National will simply defer to the local CO.







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