LDS membership declines

[le Voyageur]

An interesting article - wondering if BSA will see a future decline in LDS units, too.

 

 

http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_2890645

[evmori]

Looks like their growth rate is slowing not their membership declining.

[OldGreyEagle]

Introspectively speaking, would that be a bad thing?

[Kahuna]

I am the furthest thing from a Mormon, but have found them to be, as a group, the nicest bunch of people anywhere. The world could use a lot more of them IMHO, not because I think their religious philosophy is correct, but because they are law-abiding and good citizens.

 

I really wish they could convert the radical Islamists.

[HICO_Eagle]

I'm with Kahuna. I don't cotton to their particular religious beliefs or how their church is run but have never had any problems with the Mormons I've known. On the whole, a very nice group of people that I'd welcome over San Francisco-style radicals any day of the week.

[Oak Tree]

I can't speak for OGE, but I know how I interpreted his question.

 

All the individual Mormons are great. But it's not entirely healthy for the BSA to have any one particular large national body have an out-sized voice in setting policy for the organization.

[fgoodwin]

Oak Tree, the influence of LDS on BSA is no more than that of the Methodists or Catholics.

 

Or is it just the influence of religious bodies that you are concerned about? Since the ACLU drove us out of the public schools (at least in terms of charter sponsorship), we are left with religious and civic organizations. So naturally, the largest sponsors will have the most influence.

 

If I misread your concern, let me apologize now and ask that you enlighten me.

[le Voyageur]

Mormonism has two key elements, one their religion, the other is what could be called "LDS Inc", the business side of a major multi billion dollar, tax exempt corporation.

 

LDS Inc has a tradition, and a long history of providing absoultey no financial transparency to anyone, including it's memberbody, even though those that make up that membership must provide LDS Inc ten percent of their gross income. There are no exceptions, no one gets a quarterly statement, an accounting of where their monies go, or how it will be spent.

 

Currently "LDS Inc" is building a major mall, the City Creek Mall in Salt Lake city with an expected cost of eight billon dollars. In Boston, the 36,000-square-foot Cambridge Stake Center, under construction in Kendall Square, the Longfellow Park chapel, and the Brookline project. These projects are in addition to the recently built Boston Temple completed in 2000.

 

Additionally, 19 new Temples are now in the works, with 3 scheduled for renovation. As to cost, Mormon officials won't disclose the cost of the building of any Temple.

 

Now efforts (on my part) to nail down how much LDS Inc is pouring into BSA National still remains an unknown. However, with LDS membership dropping, meaning less revenue flowing into the Mormon coffer, it seems that cost cutting would have to come into play. What won't get cut will be any temple projects, everything else would be fair game to protect those projects.

 

As such, since the numbers aren't available, the best way to determine if the LDS church is losing financial favoritism within BSA National is by watching the makeup of the Executive Board. Currently of the 72 members of this board, 24 are LDS. My own thinking is that a reduction, say a loss of a half of that number, I would expect to start seeing some policy changes within BSA as new, and non LDS voices would begin being heard.

 

 

 

[Oak Tree]

fgoodwin, I have no particular special insight into the influences of groups at the national level. I do know that it is common for people to discuss certain policies as being dictated by some of the largest sponsors, with LDS having a prominent role in this.

 

I don't know how you would measure influence, but here are a few things I observe.

 

Number of sponsored units:

LDS: 37,146

Methodist: 11,499

Catholic: 9,265

 

Only one group has a week at Philmont devoted to units from that organization.

 

As I understand it, only one of these groups uses Scouting as their primary youth program.

 

These are again my assumptions, based on what I've seen, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong: The great majority of youth in LDS units are LDS youth. I expect this percentage is substantially higher than that for Methodists in Methodist units.

 

I also believe that if a Methodist church were to decide to stop sponsoring a troop, the troop could fairly easily move elsewhere. I don't have the impression that is true for an LDS troop.

 

For all of these reasons, it is my perception that the LDS would get more attention paid to the policies it is pushing. And in one sense, there is certainly nothing wrong with that - that's how democracies in general work. But in another sense, diverse organizations like the BSA are well-served not to have any one group be perceived as having an outsized voice in the proceedings.

 

It's going to be difficult to "prove" any one group has too much influence. But the perception is definitely out there. You see it referenced frequently. I did a quick web search and found a few examples.

 

From the Unitarian web site: The Mormon influence, especially, is pervasive

 

From www.troop97.net: My prediction: coed Cub Scouting and coed Boy Scouting will not happen in American Scouting before 2020, and probably not for many years beyond that (if ever). This is partly because the US tends to be more conservative than most other western countries, and it is certainly partly due to opposition from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS or Mormon church), whose church-run units represent about one-fifth of BSA membership, giving them a powerful influence on BSA programs and policies.

 

From dailykos: The structure is complex and deliberately obscure but it allows a few groups chartering units (sponsoring Troops) to have a disproportionate influence. LDS (the Mormon Church) has had an increasingly large presence in BSA

 

From msnbc: The Boy Scouts are the official boys youth group of the LDS, and more than one in nine Scouts are Mormons. Critics say the church exerts disproportionate influence through membership on the national advisory council and vigorous fund-raising.

 

From portlandphoenix.com: Why do the Boy Scouts make such a big deal about gays when the Girl Scouts don't? The boys rely on donations from the Mormon Church while the girls sell cookies.

 

It appears to be widely believed that the LDS church is largely responsible for reinforcing the BSA's ban on homosexuals. This quote, for example, was attributed to the Salt Lake Tribune: If the Boy Scouts of America is forced to accept gays as scoutmasters, the LDS Church will withdraw from the organization and take more than 400,000 Scouts with it.

 

I had not been intending to make any kind of controversial statement by saying that LDS had the largest voice. I'm not really "concerned" about it. But I do believe that such influence might prevent the BSA from adapting new policies - and it certainly has prevented other organizations with more gay-friendly policies (e.g. Reform Jewish, Unitarian) from creating troops that are in alignment with their own religious beliefs.

[Troop24]

For what it is worth in our neck of the woods we hold our Woodbadge training Thursday through Saturday due to the wishes of the local LDS sponsored units. I am not sure if that is an indication of too much influence or not.

[BadenP]

I think that Oak Tree and le Voyageur's posts sum up very well what is happening within the LDS hierarchy and with LDS influence on scouting. I too think the Mormons as a whole are great people but the hierarchy is as corrupt as any body given that much power. You can only pull the wool over your membership for so long before you are found out and they in turn hold you accountable or they vote with their feet and leave the LDS. The same thing is happening in many Christian congregations today, a clerical collar does not grant you immunity from your deeds.

[Lisabob]

I would only like to add that it was not the ACLU that "drove" the BSA from public schools. When the BSA asserted in court documents that it is a religious organization, it brought this result upon itself. If the BSA was too short-sighted to see this coming, well then they needed to buy a better class of lawyers who could explain to them the consequences of their actions. But my guess is, they knew this would happen and opted to go down this road anyway, because that was the only way they could successfully argue that they are not a public accomodation, and could therefore invoke the 1st amendment assembly rights to keep gays out of scouting. No point in blaming this particular result on the ACLU, whose primary interest is in upholding the bill of rights.

 

 

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Lisabob, your guess is correct.

 

From the questioning during oral arguments in front of the Supreme Court in the Boy Scouts of America v. Dale case.

 

Justice Kennedy: "just as a matter of New Jersey law it would seem to me that the schools and the fire departments, to comply with the New Jersey law as interpreted by the supreme court, would have to sever the relation. Perhaps I'm wrong."

 

Mr. Davidson: "Justice Kennedy, that may well be."

 

[...]

 

Justice Scalia: "Anyway, your point is if Government giving any assistance to the Scouts is a problem, you'd rather, no thank you, not have the assistance than have to change your policies."

 

Mr. Davidson: "Right. The Scouts have said many times that their policies are not for sale, and if it costs the sponsorship, well that's... so be it."

 

[evmori]

I would only like to add that it was not the ACLU that "drove" the BSA from public schools. When the BSA asserted in court documents that it is a religious organization, it brought this result upon itself. If the BSA was too short-sighted to see this coming, well then they needed to buy a better class of lawyers who could explain to them the consequences of their actions.

 

Well the BSA isn't a religious organization and the bozo who stated that was wrong. So instead of the public school chartering the organization, the PTA or like group charters it. Not really a big win in my book.

[BDPT00]

Interesting points (don't want to stray too far from the LDS topic though). I'd be interested to see among the quotes from the Supreme Court anything that says, "religious organization."

BDPT00