Civil Air Patrol & BSA dual charter

[BadenP 93]

Merlyn

 

What is your source because it totally conflicts the information I was given by a CAP rep. I doubt seriously that Congress dictates to the CAP, and maybe some of CAP's members are also USAF employees but I have to seriously question your statement.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=163

...

Civil Air Patrol is a Congressionally chartered, federally supported,

non-profit corporation that serves as the official auxiliary of the U.

S. Air Force.

...

Headquarters Civil Air Patrol is located at Maxwell Air Force Base,

Ala., The headquarters is staffed with nearly 100 full-time civilian

employees who provide administrative and logistics support to 57,000 CAP

members nationwide. Although paid by the Air Force, these employees are

neither Air Force civil servants or contractors, they are employees of

the CAP Corporation.

...

In May 1948, Public Law 557 made the organization the official auxiliary

of the Air Force. This law, known as the CAP Supply Bill, authorized the

Secretary of the Air Force to assign military and civilian personnel to

liaison offices at all levels of CAP. Congress again fundamentally

modified the organization in 2000. With the Floyd D. Spence National

Defense Authorization Act, Congress clarified auxiliary status as a

conditional state dependent on CAP performing actual services for a

federal department or agency. Congress also specified the funding

mechanisms the Air Force must use to provide funds to CAP for

operations, maintenance, and procurement of property.

 

Most significantly, Congress created the CAP Board of Governors to serve

as the principal governing body of the organization. This 11-member

board is made up of members appointed by the Secretary of the Air Force

and senior CAP volunteers. The Board of Governors provides strategic

direction and guidance to CAP, while delegating many day-to-day

operations of CAP to the CAP National Commander and his staff.

...(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[BadenP 93]

By your own words, "a nonprofit corporation", "an auxillary of the USAF".

The Coast Guard Auxillary IS NOT part of the Coast Guard and can not assist in either military or enforcement duties, I know because I am a member. The same is true for CAP, it is a civilian group which may be given limited assignments by the Air Force and have liason officers but these officers are NOT CAP. Any auxillary is there to provide assistance to its military counterpart but they themselves are not military, just like my auxillary Coast Guard unit is not military or law enforcement but assists with boater safety courses and registration that the Coast Guard does not have time to perform, the same is true for CAP.

 

In no way or stretch of the imagination are CAP or CGA considered a military organization and are instead groups of civilians with a passion for flying or boating.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

By your own words, "a nonprofit corporation", "an auxillary of the USAF"

 

Yep, the US can set up nonprofit corporations that are an auxiliary of a branch of the military. It's still controlled and partly financed by the government, which means it can't exclude atheists any more than it can exclude Jews. Excluding atheists would go against their own nondiscrimination policy, too.

 

A member of the US Coast Guard Auxiliary is apparently an employee of the Dept. of Homeland Security.

 

In no way or stretch of the imagination are CAP or CGA considered a military organization

 

I never said they were. But neither can practice religious discrimination because of their governmental ties.

 

...instead groups of civilians with a passion for flying or boating.

 

They are groups with enough governmental ties to prohibit religious discrimination. A private boating group could be all-white if they wanted to be, but not the Coast Guard Aux.

[BadenP 93]

Merlyn

 

Get it straight son, auxillary members are VOLUNTEERS we get no pay. They do not discriminate, but then neither does an LFL post. The ties to government as you claim does not make the auxillary subject to military orders, they can not be pressed into military service at ANY time, rather the military may request some help in areas of nonenforcement and nonmilitary tasks which the auxillary can choose to accept or reject based on their current number of volunteers available. So please don't twist your misunderstanding of auxillaries to fit your erroneous views.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Get it straight son, auxillary members are VOLUNTEERS we get no pay.

 

Get it straight, the government cannot discriminate on the basis of religion, even if people volunteer.

 

They do not discriminate, but then neither does an LFL post.

 

But Venture Crews do, which is why I'm talking about CAP and charters with Crews or Varsity scouts.

 

The ties to government as you claim does not make the auxillary subject to military orders, they can not be pressed into military service at ANY time, rather the military may request some help in areas of nonenforcement and nonmilitary tasks which the auxillary can choose to accept or reject based on their current number of volunteers available. So please don't twist your misunderstanding of auxillaries to fit your erroneous views.

 

You're the one doing bizarre twisting -- I've NEVER claimed your imaginary fantasies that CAP is "subject to military orders" or "pressed into military service" -- these are the product of your imagination, not mine, as some sort of red herring.

 

What I HAVE said is that CAP's government ties makes it illegal for them to charter Venture Crews, so the ones that exist have to go.

 

Next time, answer what I have been claiming, instead of answering phantom claims that nobody has been making.

[Eamonn 61]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/9442.html

 

 

TITLE 10 > Subtitle D > PART III > CHAPTER 909 > 9442

9442. Status as volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force

(a) Volunteer Civilian Auxiliary. The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government.

(b) Use by Air Force.

(1) The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of the Civil Air Patrol to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Department of the Air Force.

(2) The Civil Air Patrol shall be deemed to be an instrumentality of the United States with respect to any act or omission of the Civil Air Patrol, including any member of the Civil Air Patrol, in carrying out a mission assigned by the Secretary of the Air Force.

 

It does seem that Merlyn_LeRoy is right.

While both the CAP and Venturing do have a lot in common, the way the CAP is funded would not allow it CAP groups to be part of a traditional BSA program.

It is strange that this hasn't been noticed before now.

Ea.

 

[BadenP 93]

Oh Merlyn I was just refuting your prior posts claiming the CAP is a military organization and a government agency which it is not, or run by the Congress which it does not, or being controlled by air force officers which it is not, proving once again your claims are meritless and your arguments just a lot of hot air.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Oh Merlyn I was just refuting your prior posts claiming the CAP is a military organization

 

Here you're just making up statements and claiming I made such claims, which I haven't.

 

Here's what I said:

CAP is part of the US government

CAP employees are paid by the US Air Force

 

Both are true statements, assuming www.af.mil didn't get it wrong.

 

and a government agency which it is not,

 

Here you're just making up statements and claiming I made such claims, which I haven't.

 

I never claimed CAP was a "government agency." CAP is clearly part of the US government.

 

or run by the Congress which it does not,

 

Here you're just making up statements and claiming I made such claims, which I haven't.

 

I said "congress decides how CAP is run," and since congress can (and has) passed laws telling CAP how it is run and how its board of governors are selected, then yes, congress DOES decide how CAP is run.

 

or being controlled by air force officers which it is not,

 

I said "currently the board of directors is appointed by CAP senior members and the Secretary of the Air Force"

Civil Air Patrol is headed by a National Commander, currently Major General Amy S. Courter. The organization is governed by a Board of Governors, established by federal law in 2001 and consisting of 11 members: four Civil Air Patrol members (currently the National Commander, National Vice Commander, and two members-at-large appointed by the CAP National Executive Committee), four Air Force representatives appointed by the Secretary of the Air Force, and three members from the aviation community jointly appointed by the CAP National Commander and the Secretary of the Air Force.

 

proving once again your claims are meritless and your arguments just a lot of hot air.

 

No, you just can't admit you're wrong, so you just make up nonsense.

 

[BadenP 93]

Merlyn

 

Read Eamonn's citation, CAP is a volunteer civilian auxillary that can be used by the USAF but it is NOT a part of the military, Thats what volunteer, civilian, and auxillary mean, it also means that they are NOT bound legally to fly any mission they might find too risky, much like in the Coast Guard auxillary for example we can turn down a rescue mission if it is deemed too risky.

 

Bottom line- military agencies can request assistance of an auxillary but that auxillary is not legally bound to perform it. If they were indeed part of the military that would not be the case. So again you have proven nothing to refute what I have said and I am through trying to correct your misinformation and attempts to grasp at straws and find a villian behind every case.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Read Eamonn's citation,

 

READ what I WRITE.

 

CAP is a volunteer civilian auxillary that can be used by the USAF but it is NOT a part of the military,

 

I haven't said ANYTHING to contradict that.

 

Thats what volunteer, civilian, and auxillary mean, it also means that they are NOT bound legally to fly any mission they might find too risky,

 

I HAVEN'T SAID A DAMN THING ABOUT WHETHER THEY ARE LEGALLY BOUND TO FLY ANYTHING.

 

much like in the Coast Guard auxillary for example we can turn down a rescue mission if it is deemed too risky.

 

Bottom line- military agencies can request assistance of an auxillary but that auxillary is not legally bound to perform it.

 

SO

 

WHAAAAAT!????

 

 

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER CAP OR THE COAST GUARD AUXILIARY CAN PRACTICE RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION.

 

If they were indeed part of the military that would not be the case.

 

IT'S LUCKY I NEVER SAID SUCH A THING, THEN.

 

So again you have proven nothing to refute what I have said

 

BECAUSE ALL YOU DO IS BABBLE IRRELEVANCIES.

 

and I am through trying to correct your misinformation

 

You haven't quoted ONE THING I've said that's incorrect.

 

You keep making up things and falsely trying to pin them on me.

 

and attempts to grasp at straws and find a villian behind every case.

 

CAP units that charter Venture Crews are breaking the law.

[John-in-KC 311]

Tell you what Merlyn: You seem to care about this an awful lot. Maybe you should be in a CAP Wing with a Youth Squadron that is co-chartered with a Crew. If you are, go try and file a Federal lawsuit to see if the District Court thinks the issue matters. Let's see how deep your pockets are. Let's see if you have standing to complain about this. Certainly I know BSA will work to defend itself and the CAP. If you care that much, put your vast fortune where your mouth is. If not, and I will be decidedly less than Friendly. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Lisabob 13]

Wow. Whatever you may think about a person's political and/or religious leanings, illegal is illegal. The law is not written for convenience' sake. Merlyn raises a good point here. Is he right? I dunno for sure, I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on tv either. But it sure does seem like the easy answer would be for BSA to co-charter via explorer posts instead of crews.

 

As for the other stuff (or does this only apply to the kids?):

 

A Scout is Friendly.

A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own.

A Scout is Courteous.

A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows that using good manners makes it easier for people to get along.

A Scout is Kind.

A Scout knows there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. Without good reason, he does not harm or kill any living thing.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Well John-in-KC, this will probably be settled with another letter from the ACLU, telling the BSA to stop issuing charters to organizations that can't practice religious discrimination, just like public schools. The BSA isn't trustworthy, so people like me have to force them to act honestly.

[BadenP 93]

Oh my I do think that our friend Merlyn may have burst a blood vessel. Taking things too personally and seriously can be hazardous to your health Merlyn, have a nice glass of wine and relax it will all be over soon, lol.