Re thinking the 1st Amendment

[Torveaux]

"Religious rights of atheists" - rather oxymoronic no?

 

The problem here is that the ACLU's cases are based solely on a misinterpretation of the Constitution. The supporting documents make it quite clear that the establishment clause did not mean government could not acknowledge religion, nor did it mean that government could not in any way be construed as assisting religious organizations. It meant, and still means, quite clearly that government shall not establish a religion. That has a meaning as well. Words mean things. We will not have a "Church of America" ala the "Church of England". More importantly, it is incumbent upon the government to stay out of the 'free exercise' (meaning the practices) of religion.

 

The entire ACLU position rests firmly on the hope that we will continue to have judges that dictate their opinions rather than read the actual Constitution and its supporting documents.

 

The thing I really do not understand is the bitterness of people excluded from a private organization going out of their way to harrass that organization for the right to join it. That is rather like the characters that stalk a woman who will not go out with them in the hopes that she will. Then when they force her into the relationship, they wonder why she cries. Clearly the position of the BSA is antithetical to many people. Great! Start your own organization that is all inclusive and meets your personal whims. That is what is great about America, you are free to organize yourself.

 

"Gee, I want to join a group of people that view me as morally bankrupt. If they wont let me join, I'll get the court to make them love me." Pitiful.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Torveaux writes:

"Religious rights of atheists" - rather oxymoronic no?

 

Not at all. "Religious rights" includes things like not being discriminated against by the government due to your religious views. When a public school runs a youth group that excludes atheists, that's exactly what's happening.

 

And I wouldn't join the BSA; it's a dishonest, bigoted organization. That's why I want all government support removed from it.

[evmori]

Torveaux,

Very well put! Excellent! Right on the money.

 

Merlyn,

You don't meet the BSA membership guidelines so you can't join.

 

One of the reasons our founding fathers came to this country was because of not having religious freedom. The 1st Amendment guarantees us religious freedom. It states the government will not establish a religion! Nowhere does it state the government can't support religion. Support doesn't equal establishment.

 

And I'll ask again since no one answered before, by chartering a BSA unit, what religion is a public school endorsing?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, the Boy Scouts don't meet the requirements for school sponsorship, so they can't get sponsored.

[johndaigler]

Ed, set all that ACLU and Consititutional baggage off to the side. I think we gum up the works when we start blaming the ACLU for the Constitutional interpretations of locally elected and federally appointed judges, and/or think we, as individuals, have a better handle on the intent of our forefathers than said judges.

 

Are you comfortable with an RC Church owning (sponsoring) a troop where only RC leaders are acceptable? Only RC scouts are accepted?

 

 

Perhaps a troop that disinvites Jewish boys?

 

 

How about if that last troop is Owned (sponsored) by the local public school?

 

I assume you can see we're I'm going. The BSA and it's franchisees have the right to structure membership -- the US govt. doesn't. I truly don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge this. The separation of Scout and State is obvious, and the responsibility for any political or social ramifications, and Scouter angst, can only be laid at the feet of the BSA. We made the choices. Why do we get shook when people ask us to live up to the responsibilities and consequences of those choices????????

 

jd

 

 

[evmori]

The separation of church & state is an interpretation of the 1st Amendment. It doesn't really say "the church & state must be separate".

 

And still no one has answered my question - What religion does chartering a BSA unit establish?

 

Merlyn,

There are no requirements for school sponsorship.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, there certainly ARE requirements for school sponsorship; do you think a public school could have a whites-only baseball team?

[evmori]

Sure they can! The public high school I graduated from has an all white baseball, football and basketball team! And I'll bet there are public high schools that have all black teams, too!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, did any of those schools have an official policy that excluded players based on race?

 

No.

 

The BSA excludes members based on their religious views. Public schools can't do that.

[evmori]

You are correct. Public schools must accept any child that lives within their school district boundaries regardless of race, color, creed, etc. And a public school chartering a BSA unit is in no way condoning religious discrimination! Just the same as a public school sponsoring a GSUSA unit is not condoning gender discrimination!

 

It seems to me, Merlyn, you want special rights for atheists. You want the right not to hear a prayer at a football game or not have intelligent design taught in public schools. Well guess what, I want to hear a prayer at a football game and have the intelligent design taught in public schools! What about my rights! You don't care who you trample on to get what you want! That's how the former USSR was run! Maybe you should move there! They would like you!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, you don't seem to realize that the lawsuit against the football prayer was brought by a Catholic family and a Mormon family, not atheist families. I can't tell you their names, because they filed anonymously to avoid harassment and death threats. Plus there's the minor fact that the US Supreme Court agreed that these prayers violated the constitution.

 

There are 11 families as litigants in the lawsuit against Dover's Intelligent Design policy. The lawsuit doesn't say what their religious views are. I doubt all eleven families are atheists.

[evmori]

What you fail to realize Merlyn is I never stated those lawsuits were brought by atheists. And you also fail to realize my rights are the same as yours. You seems to want special rights for atheists! But that along with my other question is something you refuse to address.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

 

What you fail to realize Merlyn is I never stated those lawsuits were brought by atheists.

 

I didn't say you stated that those lawsuits were brought by atheists, I said you didn't seem to realize that a Catholic and Mormon family brought the football lawsuit.

 

And you also fail to realize my rights are the same as yours.

 

No, I'm the one who realizes that public schools can't own & operate youth groups that would exclude kids who share your religious beliefs or share the lack of mine. You seem to think public schools COULD do so.

 

You seems to want special rights for atheists!

 

Where? Oh, you mean those court cases you referred to - the ones brought by other Christians? Those special rights?

 

Hmm, how do court cases brought by Christians create special rights for atheists?

 

Or are you talking about other "special rights" that you haven't discussed yet?

 

But that along with my other question is something you refuse to address.

 

Ed, you are geniunely too dumb to understand legal arguments.

[evmori]

Which means a public school couldn't own & operate an atheist youth group! But I would bet that wouldn't bother you would it.

 

Merlyn,

No I'm not too dumb to understand legal arguments. You seem to be the one with the intelligence problem! So after you get all the BSA units out of public schools (won't happen), what's next? Are you going to attack the PTA's? Or maybe the GSUSA? It will never end! You and the ACLU do not have the interests of the general public at heart. It is nothing more than a self-serving agenda!

 

So I guess you can't answer the question I posed earlier, can you?

 

The special right I am referring to is no prayer in public schools, no mention of God in any place that is supported by public funds, etc. Those special rights! Duh!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

There are stories in the Troop of an older scout who when asked by the scoutmaster who started Boy Scouts, would reply "I don't know". This was after being told about B-P many, many times. Finally, an ASM pulled him aside and asked him why he couldn't remember that B-P started Boy Scouts. The scout started to smirk and laugh and said, I know who started Boy Scouts, but I love the way Mr. Scoutmaster's vein in his forehead squiggles and he gets red whenever I say that and then he gets all excited and tells me all about B-P and Mafeking and the unknown boy scout. Armed with that bit of information, that the scout just loved to see the reactions, people stopped asking and explaining about B-P

 

Sometimes it better not to play into the hands of one who seeks to manipulate(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)