WHEELER 10 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Plato The Republic, Translator B. Jowett, M.A., Vintage Books, pg 151 (435) Nay, rather, Socrates, the proverb holds that hard is the good. Ibid pg52 (364) The universal voice of mankind is always declaring that justice and virtue are honourable, but grievous and toilsome; and that the pleasures of vice and injustice are easy of attainment, Ibid pg53 (364) Vice may be had in abundance without trouble; the way smooth and her dwelling-place is near. But before virtue the gods of have set toil. (Socrates quoting Hesiod, Works and Days, 287) Matthew 7:13-14 Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. (14) For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. A rock is sharpened with a rock. When Indians make arrowheads, they sharpen a rock with a rock. Man is the same way. A man must be sharpened by man. A man is sharpened by a rock. A man is sharpened by the hard. What was the punishment given to Adam in Genesis? At the Fall, God cursed the serpent and God increased the pain of women. He attached punishment to their persons. But with the man it was different. The Lord God cursed the ground; He attached punishment to Adam personally (returning to the earth) and He made mans occupation harsh, rocky, difficult and rigourous! WHY? (Plato said, The beginning of truth is to wonder.) The Lord God said, (Genesis 3:13f)+ Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and eaten of the tree concerning which I charged thee of it only not to eatof that thou hast eaten, cursed is the ground in thy labours, in pain shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. In sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread until thou return to the earth out of which thou wast taken, for thou art earth and to earth thou shalt return. Adam was weak and ineffectual as a leader. He was effeminate. God cursed the ground. He made it HARD for man to make a living. Rock sharpens rock. Earth now will sharpen man and make him hard. Not only was this the punishment but it was also the medicine that would heal man. This is part and parcel and the foundation of the Protestant Work Ethic that made America great. Man is toughened and made rugged. One cant make it out in nature unless one is tough. Either you are tougher than nature or better; or nature kills you. Man is turned from being effeminate to being a righteous man. Thomas Jefferson said, The yeoman of America are not the canaille of Paris. What is he comparing here? He is comparing here the American Land-owning Farmer, who was hard rugged and independent with the city inhabitants of Paris, who were fomenting rebellion; the foundation of socialism. Canaille is dogs in French; it is slang for the mob. It is written in the Book of Sirach Hate not laborious work, neither husbandry, which the most High hath ordained. I have worked in the construction field. Men who are righteous labor hard to do something right and true. The effeminate man does what he can quickly or does it half-measured since he cant be bothered, he doesnt care; he doesnt want to exert himself because doing the job right is a painful process. Another Lesson: In the Old Testament God brought the Hebrews to the promised land. The spies came back with exaggerated tales and the people were fearful. They did not believe in God. They were cowardly. (Num 13:31f) So God swore in his heart that they will not enter into the Promised Land. (Num 14:29f) And they did not. Prov 19:15 Cowardice possesses the effeminate man. (The Greek here is androyinon; andre is the Greek for man and yinon is the Greek for woman.) The Lord God made them wander for forty years in the desert so that He could wipe out that effeminate generation and replace them with hardy and rugged soldiers. And it was this generation that entered the Promised Land. The Promised Land is a type of heaven. What does St. Paul say, Do not be deceived, the effeminate,..shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus said The way is hard, that leads to life. The good comes through the hard. Virtue is hard. Vice is easy. Aristotle [Politics Loeb Classical Library, pg 651(1339)] said, Now it is not difficult to see that one must not make amusement the object of the education of the young; for amusement does not go with learninglearning is a painful process. Education is painful, ignorance is easy. Reading a book is hard, naivete is easy. Memorization is hard, darkness is easy. Manliness is hard, childishness is easy. Righteousness is hard, carelessness is easy. Perfection is hard, sloppiness is easy. Freedom is hard, slavery is easy. The Good is hard dull and boring, evil is easy, exciting, thrilling, pleasant and cheap. God is a man of war(Exodus 15:3 Masoretic Text, Hebrew Pentatuch), the devil is an effeminate transvestite. Education fails in America because America is effeminate. Learning is a painful process. The effeminate flees pain. Education started in the Greeks because they were manly. What does the Holy Spirit command? Joshua 1:6 Be strong, and quit thyself like a man. Isxue kai andrizou. Joshua 1:7 Be strong, therefore, and quit thyself like a man. Joshua 1:9 be strong and courageous, be not cowardly nor fearful. Joshua 1:18 but be thou strong and courageous. Deut 31:23 And he charged Joshua and said, Andrizou kai isxue. II Kings 10:12 Be thou courageous, and let us be strong Andrizou kai krataiothomen. How long will it take for a Boy Scout to hear this charge? Who will Command and Teach. (1 Tim 4:11) (All Old Testament quotes come from the Septuagint unless otherwise noted.) Link to post Share on other sites
purcelce 11 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 (Scratching head, looking puzzled) Ok...I read the post twice. Good quotes, etc. Now my question. What is point of this post? Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 And the point that's trying to be made is ......................................? Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to post Share on other sites
WHEELER 10 Posted February 12, 2004 Author Share Posted February 12, 2004 Go to the Political section and read the post "Socrates: Culture defines Politics". The Point??? Do you want life or Death? And how we train boys is the difference. Do we train them to the easy life or to the hard? Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 We train them to be prepared for whatever life they have. Link to post Share on other sites
EagleInKY 14 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Wheeler, Most of us come to this site to discuss program ideas, issues with our units or boys, or just have fun interaction with other scouters. We're really not that interested in how Socrates words applies to what we're doing. While your posts are obviously well thought out and may be very true, they just aren't that relevant to most of us. I'm sure you'll look down your nose at me and see me as some sort of buffoon, but I'm just a guy trying to do my best for Scouting. Your posts make me tired. Find another board or try to limit them to maybe one a week. Now, how do you use that ignore user capability? Link to post Share on other sites
eagle90 125 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Amen, EagleInKY! I was gonna post something similar, but you said it best! Link to post Share on other sites
WHEELER 10 Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 Well, I looked all over the official BSA website and didn't find any links to websites. Do you know the message board of the high mucky mucks? Maybe I should be speaking to them. Maybe, I'm on the wrong board. So, if you know where that is, point me in that direction. Link to post Share on other sites
WHEELER 10 Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 Or....Have the webmaster open a new section called philosophy and move my posts there and I'll move into and won't bother you any. Deal. Link to post Share on other sites
purcelce 11 Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Wheeler, Best place to post things like this is on the issues and politics section of this board. Link to post Share on other sites
frank10 12 Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Wheeler, Any chance of you filling in your profile? It would be interesting to know a bit more about you and your involvement in the program. Link to post Share on other sites
Laurie 10 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 "Well, I looked all over the official BSA website and didn't find any links to websites. Do you know the message board of the high mucky mucks? Maybe I should be speaking to them. Maybe, I'm on the wrong board. So, if you know where that is, point me in that direction" -- Wheeler Maybe you don't know the purpose of this board? It is not an official BSA site. "This is a private community provided by SCOUTER Network and reserved for Scouting related discussions." You'll see this at the bottom of every page of the forums. "Or....Have the webmaster open a new section called philosophy and move my posts there and I'll move into and won't bother you any. Deal." -- Wheeler That is incredibly arrogant. Coming here, making numerous posts, and then having the nerve to suggest the webmaster of "this private community provided" which is "reserved for Scouting related discussions" make a special new section just for you. Wheeler, this board is open to all, but it is made available free but does ask that we all abide by the rules of decorum, found here: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=5358 You are posting things in "Open Discussion-Program" that are being read by many, and I will respond, if only to hopefully bring to the attention of the many youth who come here that the views you express of the BSA are inconsistent with what the BSA itself teaches. A challenge to you would be to take time to actually learn about the BSA rather than insulting those who provide forums for those currently carrying out the program. Then, once you know the program, if you still feel it necessary to correct those currently carrying out the program, maybe they'll actually listen. You've not earned the right to speak on behalf of the BSA, so please stop abusing the bits and pieces you've read and passing them on as fact. Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Well, I looked all over the official BSA website and didn't find any links to websites. Do you know the message board of the high mucky mucks? Maybe I should be speaking to them. Maybe, I'm on the wrong board. So, if you know where that is, point me in that direction. There is no official, "public", message board run by BSA national. In fact, the last time I checked, national did not have a public e-mail address. You can write to them through regular mail. I am sure the councils and national have electronic links to each other, but they are not for "us" and I can understand why. It is in keeping with the general "pattern of communications" within the BSA. National rarely (if ever) communicates directly with people at the unit level except through published materials (Scouting magazine, training materials, handbooks, the supply catalog, etc.) More "immediate" communications (including memos "to all Scouters," and obviously including information pertaining to a specific unit) come from the council/district level. I'm not sure what happens if you call up national, unless you know a specific person, but I have a suspicion that nobody in a position of authority is going to stay on the phone with you very long to hear about Socrates and his theories on training youth. So, you can mail all your philosophical musings to national, and hopefully you will eventually get back something at least saying "Thank you for your interest," after all, a Scout is courteous. But there is no opportunity that I am aware of for "interactive" communications with national. Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Okay, life's hard then you die. We get it. But what does that have to do with the Scout program, which you proclaim such a great interest in fixing? Let's get down to the brass tacks here: what are you proposing? Forced marches? More survival training? Hand-to-hand combat? What is it that you think we shoud be doing -- on the ground, one-on-one -- to make Scouts harder and less effeminate? Do you actually have a plan of action, or is all this just more philosophical navel gazing? Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Well, TwoCubDad, the idea of forced marches and hand-to-hand combat sounds interesting, it would certainly make for some unique conversations among leaders. "Say, Spartacus, I never see little Johnnie at troop meetings any more." "Um, no, Agamemnon, little Johnnie was too small and weak to survive the Trials last month. It's a shame, he could tie a mean bowline. But the troop will be stronger for it when we go up against Troop 12 next week." Link to post Share on other sites
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