A Question for Merlyn...

[Zahnada]

Hi Bob,

 

I guess the difference between us is that I consider atheism a chosen belief structure. Instead of classifying it as a "disbelief" in a higher being, I would say "belief that there is no higher being." Fine line, but it explains our differences of opinions.

 

In regards to religion, people are confronted by a series of choices throughout their lives. A person who chooses atheism has still chosen a structure of faith that can guide their lives. The scout law says, "respect the beliefs of others" and I consider atheism a belief that science holds the answers and that there is no supreme being. Therefore I respect people's ability to choose that lifestyle.

 

Although I don't agree with atheism, I would never go as far to say that I would not let an atheist into my house or do business with them. I think an atheist can also be a moral person.

 

These are just my rambling opinions. Obviously, we don't share the same views on the subject, but that's okay. Just as long as you see how I can respect a choice to be atheist and I can also respect a person despite their atheism.

[Achilleez]

You took the words out of my mouth.

[packsaddle]

I feel the need to respond to some recent statements. Science is not a faith and does not depend on faith, nor should any faith depend on science. That said, it doesn't mean that scientists do not have beliefs.

 

I do understand that some persons may confuse 'working assumptions' with 'faith'. The distinction is that faith does not and cannot be a part of experimental or rational study. Working assumptions, on the other hand, are often used, sometimes in the form of hypotheses, as tools in just such studies.

 

I state these things because to link atheism with science is erroneous. Atheism may well be a belief system that denies the existence of a deity. And atheism (and atheists) are free to employ science and rational thought to support their beliefs. However, to make atheism somehow dependent on science gives qualities to science that do not exist - and also may understate or misrepresent the philosophical basis for atheism.

 

Science cannot address matters of faith. Period. Therefore it is at worst (or best) neutral to those matters, being unable to address questions of deity either positively or negatively. Therefore I remind everyone that for the sake of science, if for no other reason, we should recognize that it is separate from matters of faith, even atheistic ones.

 

[NJCubScouter]

Very well said, Packsaddle.

[Bob White]

You can wash a skunk as clean as you can and it is still a skunk. Dress up atheism in whatever manner you want and it is still the absence of faith in God. I agree with the BSA, without the willingness to accept God and do service to that faith a persons character cannot fully develop. Atheism is not is a religioun no matter how hard you wash it.

[Zahnada]

I agree with everything you just said, Packsaddle. After reading over my comments I saw that I was making a link between atheism and science. And I was in error for that connection. Thanks for making the correction, packsaddle.

[packsaddle]

Hey, has anyone seen (heard from) Rooster7? I sort of expected to hear from him in these topics.

[Achilleez]

Atheism is my beleif system. State that it implies no degree of science if you like, but that is simply not true, at least not to me. To me, the universe can be described through a system of mathematical equations, extremely complicated equations, but a system non the less. If I go to a zoo, it is living proof of my beleif system. Hundreds of animals that exist on very complicated parameters. The animal that needs a beak, has a beak. The animal that needs strong legs for running, has strong legs for running. In this way our beleifs are not so very different, the difference being that I beleive these systems exist because of the very complicated formulas for natural life, and that you beleive the process is controlled by an all-powerful diety.

 

Bob White, I still cannot figure out how exactly you define religion. If "religion" means a beleif system that revolves around an all powerful superbeing (God, Allah, Brahman, whoever) and a lifestyle defined by scripture in a book written thousands of years ago in a language no longer commonly spoken, written and re-written hundreds of times by monks who were the only literate people at that age, and that very same book which has been scientifically proven to be innacurate (Genesis)... then fine, I have no religion.

 

This is not to say that I completely deny the possibility of the existence of a sort of creator or the past existance of one. I claim to beleive in a system of mathematical formulas, but who designed and made them? I don't know. Perhaps no one, or perhaps it was your God. But the same questions can be asked about your beleifs. Who made God? Why did he make us? Why did he make an infinitely large universe that makes our planet next to zero on the cosmic scale? Why did he choose to create us 30 000 years ago and give us rocks 300 000 000 years old? It is pointless to attempt an endeavor into answering these questions.

 

On an ironic note, I find it amusing that while Bob White would be welcome in my home, I would get the door slammed in my face.

[WHEELER]

Plato in the Laws says that Atheism is a malady. Atheists had no place in his community. (Laws 908c)

 

Anaxagoras proved thru logic that there is a God. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle continued his line of thought.

 

It says in Scripture, "only a fool says in his heart that there is no god." And that "the heavens and earth declare the wisdom of God".

 

Atheism really manifests itself in the philosophy of Nihilism. Atheists are Nihilists and therefore materialists. Nietzche is the propounder of this and helped the rise of national socialism.

 

Plato says that those who do not believe, are "incontinence in pleasure and pain and are in possession of a vigorous memory and a keen intellect." and these people give rise to "dictators, demogogues," etc. Hitler, Mussolini, Lenin, Trosky, Mao Tsedung, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh were all atheists.

 

 

[Bob White]

Achilleez,

 

The only thing you wrote that is the least bit honest, accurate and factual is when you wrote then fine, I have no religion.

 

So you think that everything is a creation of an unknown mathematical formula. You have no problem believing that? You are perfectly at ease believing that this equation, which you have no idea of how it was created or determined or what its composition is created and continues to control all things. Is that about right?

Then who created this formula? A random act of nature? Then what created the nature?

 

An atheist is a man walking down the beach who finds a watch. Where did the watch come from he asks. So he finds a man looking around in the sand nearby and discovers he dropped the watch. But where did the man get the watch, he asked. He bought it from a guy on a corner downtown. He is told. So the man goes down town and finds the peddler. He asked the peddler where he got the watch. The peddler admits he stole it from a jewelry store. So the man goes to the jewelry store and asks where the watch came from and is told it was bough from a watch maker. To which the man respondsIMPOSSIBLE. He accepts the existence of the watch, he can believe that someone dropped it, he knows that someone stole it, He believes that it came from the store but he rejects the existence of a watch maker.

 

You accept that something made the animals, you believe in the existence of an unseen, unknown a mathematical formula, you believe that nature or something set in the math in motion, but you refuse the existence of the creator of that force.

 

Then you present unproven statements as empirical fact.

Why did he choose to create us 30 000 years ago and give us rocks 300 000 000 years old?

 

and that very same book which has been scientifically proven to be inaccurate (Genesis).

 

and a lifestyle defined by scripture in a book written thousands of years ago in a language no longer commonly spoken, written and re-written hundreds of times by monks who were the only literate people at that age, By the way the lifestyle of the time is recorded in many other forms and as well as through archaeological evidence.

 

You offered some questions and then said not to answer because they were unanswerable. I disagree. I have no problem with their answers. But I understand why you would.

 

Who made God? I AM the Alpha and the Omega

Why did he make us? To reveal His love. For His pure enjoyment

Why did he make an infinitely large universe that makes our planet next to zero on the cosmic scale? To

As a constant reminder of His existence. Every time you begin to feel superior for what you have accomplished; the creation of the computer, space travel, cloning, the retractable pen, think of the existence of the endless universe and hear the voice of God say not bad, but can you do this?

 

At no time did I say I would slam a door in your face. I said you would not be welcome in my home. Without an invitation to enter my house the door could not be slammed in your face, and the invitation would not take place if I knew your were an atheist. Remain an atheist, and you will find that my home is not the only one where you will not be allowed to enter.

 

Bob White

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Big_Dog]

BW-

Your last post reminded me of a Frank and Earnest cartoon where they're dressed up like scientists and they tell God that they can create life, too. God tells them:'Fine, go ahead". So they start to rake up the ground. In the last frame God tells them: 'Hey, get your own dirt'

We have come a long way and will continue to make advances, but I don't think we'll ever get to the point that we can create something from nothing like God did!

 

BD

[Achilleez]

BW,

 

I do not claim to know the origin of the premises on which we live and function. I simply choose to beleive that the universe is ordered and structered based on natural forces which can be described mathematically. Yet the question of our two situations is the exact same : what started it? How was your God created and how were my natural forces created.

 

Both questions completely unanswerable. Again, our situations are not completely different. I beleive the natural forces are not sentient but you beleive they are.

 

Oh, and if God intented his Christians not to let atheists in their homes the world would be a sad place.

[Achilleez]

And all of the people of the world were gathered at the gates of God's Kingdom awaiting judgement. God took all the people and gathered them into his hands.

 

To his right hand he said, "You have been good to me. I was hungry and you fed me. I was thirsty and you gave me water. I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you comforted me. I was in jail and you visited me. For this you shall be rewarded will eternal life in my kingdom."

 

To his left hand he spoke to Bob White, "You have not been good to me. I was hungry and you did not feed me. I was thirsty and you did not give me water. I was naked and you did not cloth me. I was sick and you did not comfort me. I was in jail and you did not visit me."

 

And Bob White said, "When were you hungry? When were you thirsty? When were you naked? When were you sick? When were you in jail? For I never saw you."

 

And God said, "I was in the atheist, Achilleez"

 

And Bob White was cast down into the demons for eternity.

 

 

[Bob White]

If you are hungry Achileez, it is not by my hand, but your own. You have been offered the bread of life, you choose not to eat. If you are naked it is by your own choice, you have been offered the comfort of God and you refuse it. If you are sick it is by your own choice, say but the word and your soul shall be healed. If you are homeless it is by your own choice you have been offered the kingdom of heaven and you have chosen to reject it.

 

Is God within you Achileez? That is up to you.

 

[Achilleez]

Wherever this gaping hole in my heart exists that you presume I have, I don't know where it is. To answer your earlier question, yes, I am perfectly comfortable in the beleif that the universe can be scientifically and mathematically explained. I own my own businesses on a farm that has been mortgage free for the past 11 years. I have a wife and family whom I love. If I continue my business for another 5-10 years, I will be able to look forward to a nice and happy retirement. I have acheived these things because of my hard work and dependable reputation among clients. Life has been good to me, because I have worked hard for it.

 

If there is a God then I am grateful to him. Until I see unrefutable evidence of that, I am content to beleive that science will explain all in due time. Please do not pity me, or think that I have angrily rejected anything. I only hope that someday your heart might thaw out and all would be welcome in your home.