Course reversal in Philly?

[silver-shark 10]

Bob

 

Nicely stated...

 

Yet again...

[Rooster7 11]

It's strange...when Bob debates an issue of which we both agree (such as this one), Hes always so much more articulate and logical. :-)

 

Good job Bob.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Bob White writes:

Were known atheists or homosexuals ever allowed membership by the BSA? Never.

 

Did you already forget my example of Paul Trout?

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/God-Top/Paul_Trout-Top/paul_trout-top.html

(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[Bob White 20]

Paul, had his membership revoked in 1985, he would have it revoked today. Nothing has changed. Did the BSA need to claify wording to be more understandable? It seems so. Did they change their membership policy? No. Paul did not meet the requirements then, he does not meet them now. No Change.

 

Bob White

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

bob white writes:

Paul, had his membership revoked in 1985, he would have it revoked today. Nothing has changed. Did the BSA need to claify wording to be more understandable? It seems so. Did they change their membership policy? No. Paul did not meet the requirements then, he does not meet them now. No Change.

 

You didn't seem to read the entire history of Paul Trout; he was REINSTATED and became a Life Scout, even though his religious views (or lack of same) didn't change. Nowadays, he would not be reinstated. Sorry, that's a change.

[Bob White 20]

Sorry Merlyn i did miss that. evidently we both missed the part where "Paul reiterated that though he is willing to speak of "God,"...." so Paul and the BSa had common ground thereby Paul was no longer in conflict with the BSA. Reminding us that the BSA determines membership. Neither paul or the BSA altered policy, they both clarified there belief and worked through a communication problem, right?

 

Bob White

 

 

[bt01 10]

Merlyn_LeRoy

 

 

 

In God we trust

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

bob white writes:

Sorry Merlyn i did miss that. evidently we both missed the part where "Paul reiterated that though he is willing to speak of "God,"...."

 

I didn't. Did you also miss the parts that said "Paul responded that he did not have any belief in a Supreme Being, but rather had complete belief in self and self-reliance. ", or "Pauls mother, Anita Trout, told the Washington Post that her family was delighted that theyve taken this position. Pauls beliefs definitely have not changed." ?

 

And, as I had also pointed out earlier, the BSA has changed on whether belief in a "supreme being" is required or not. That's also a change.

 

But when Darrell Lambert was thrown out, apparently the "supreme being" requirement was reinstated:

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/New/Lambert/lambert.html

[packsaddle 753]

Merlyn, anyone, something in that last URL raised a question in my mind. I hesitate to ask but does anyone know how many boys and adults have been expelled on the basis of religion? Cozza says that he gets hundreds of messages each year from Scouts who have been expelled, 60% gay, 40% atheist. Is this true? I suppose it would be too much to hope that BSA would make such statistics public but I bet someone there knows.

[Bob White 20]

Merlyn,

Paul accepted a belief in God, Darrell did not. Paul could stay, Darrell could not. BSA sets the rules, the members follow them and stay, or they do not.

 

Very few have to chosen not follow the rules. Why do you suppose that is? Because the rules are not that difficult to follow? Because the vast majority like the rules and live by them daily? Because they see greater benefits to being in the program than being without it?

 

Bob White

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

packsaddle writes:

Merlyn, anyone, something in that last URL raised a question in my mind. I hesitate to ask but does anyone know how many boys and adults have been expelled on the basis of religion? Cozza says that he gets hundreds of messages each year from Scouts who have been expelled, 60% gay, 40% atheist. Is this true?

 

I have no idea.

 

I suppose it would be too much to hope that BSA would make such statistics public but I bet someone there knows.

 

They might, but I'd guess that a lot of exclusions are done locally and not reported to National, so they wouldn't have a total either. For that matter, a lot of local units completely ignore the "no gays" and/or "no atheists" requirements, too.

 

bob whites writes:

Paul accepted a belief in God, Darrell did not.

 

Not according to bsa-discrimination.org; "Paul responded that he did not have any belief in a Supreme Being, but rather had complete belief in self and self-reliance. " and the mentions of Paul Trout on the Darrell Lambert page says Trout was readmitted while having a belief in "self and self-reliance".

 

I notice you didn't commment on the changing "supreme being" requirement. That's certainly a change. For that matter, moving Exploring into Learning for Life completely removed the "no gays, no atheists" requirements for Exploring.

[questioning 10]

Bob, the statements of both Shields and Williams show a change in attitude. You may not want to admit it but it is there. The move of Exploring to Learn for life is a change. When the Oath was created Morally straight had nothing to do with "not gay". Now you all center on that meening. Bob, it is time to open your eyes and see the truth. I knew I was gay at age 12 and the whole troop knew. It was no big deal then. The were two boys in our troop that were non-theists and it didn't matter a hill of beens. You have gone into the Supreme court to be a private discriminating organization. If you can not see that as a change then you are blind and just do not want to see. The major change is that the parents (the troop committee) no longer have the power to do what they want. National today is so steeped in rejection of an entire sect of the population. BSA is the only branch of world scouting to take this stance.

 

Your "Show me proof" statement just doesn't make sense. The proof is there if you will only see, but if you refuse to see the truth all the proof in the world will not make a differance.

 

There is always room for compromise. I don't see non-thiests burning money because it says "in god we trust". ya think?

[questioning 10]

Bob, I wonder why you chose to answer me privately for my last posting. Did I come too close to the truth? How would you know what was 92 years ago? Were you there? The books i read indicate that you have handled the truth with carelessness Bob. Thogh I will continue to use questioning as my handle here, I am including your letter in this post because public forums should remain public and not go private without the recipiant's permission.

 

In a message dated 7/10/2003 9:08:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, info@scouter.com writes:

 

"The move of Exploring to Learn for life is a change."

 

It is a program change not a values change. the traditional progams of scouting have not changed values. Since most explorerr posts were sponsored by government related organiations such as Police departments, the BSA moved that program to Learning for life to avoid problems with anti-discrimination requirements in government sponsored activities.

 

The Boy Scout Troop program has never altered their values.

 

"The major change is that the parents (the troop committee) no longer have the power to do what they want."

They never did. As a scout in the fidties you had no idea what national or even local policies were. We knew about when meetings were and when the campouts were. Since when did the youth members get invlved in national BSA policy issues. Not until the nineties when it became the politically fashionable thing to do.

 

"You have gone into the Supreme court to be a private discriminating organization."

 

No we didn't. We were a private discriminating organization 92 years ago. We were forced to take our cause to US Supreme court to prove to those who said we were not acting legally that we in fact were.

 

If you are correct that the BSA has altered its values then if proof exists today of what we are then prove must exist that in the past we were. Show us the change. So far you have not.

 

Bob White

 

This Member to Member private message was sent by Bob White

Use hyperlink below to reply:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/member2member.asp?to=Bob+White&subject=RE%3A+Course+reversal+in+Philly%3F

 

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You admit change in the explorer program and then say there was no change. I grew up in the 40s and 50s and was a APA and an ASM in the 50s Bob. I am 66 years old sir. I know what the policy was then and now but if you choose to close your eyes to the truth noone can force you to see it but I would say that is sad. Very sad

 

 

Howard Menzer

Southwest Regional Director

Scouting For All

If you believe what you're doing is right

do not take a backward step but

stand for what you believe

[OldGreyEagle 5]

questioning, Howard, take a look at Topic: from the desk of a pompous, arrogant, pedantic, closeminded bookthumper and you will see that Bob White isnt running from you or afraid of anything you say. His current policy is to reply by private message, it isnt unique to you.

[questioning 10]

Gee answer off forum. Is that a change from the last 7 pages of discussion. I seperates those that disagree so there is no support. Kewl stratagy. WON'T WORK. Kicking proof to the curb while demanding proof won't work either. I get so tired of "prove it, prove it" and "I know that 92 years ago". PULEEZE We must be reading differant books. and I was there more than 50 years ago and I am here to testify that it was differant. To tell me to prove what I witnessed and testified to is calling me a liar and as a scout and scouter for many years, I DON'T LIE.

 

Thank you for you time.

 

Howard Menzer

Eagle-1951

Silver Award-1954

Vigil Order of The Arrow 1983