Here we go again....

[sctmom]

So a Scout goes to his scoutmaster and says "I believe I am gay, not sure who to talk to" and the adult should say "sorry, not my job and by the way you are not out of the troop".

 

Adults can't take the time to say "Son, have you talked to your clergy or parents? OH, you can't, okay, how about we find someone who is trained in this for you to talk to. I do have to tell you the BSA policy on gays. But for right now, let me help you find that phone number of someone to call."???????

 

Is that so hard?

If a boy comes to you and says he is being abused, you have a responsibility to report it. Even if it is not the law, it is the right thing to do.

Why not when he has other problems -- sexuality issues, drug abuse, etc.

 

[evmori]

sctmom,

I agree 100%. We should point the boy to a person qualified to handle these things. We should also inform his parents.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Joni4TA]

First, I gotta say dsteele and Bob White, you two are great. I learn more from these forums than anywhere, my home included, when it comes to Scouting. I am spoiled when it comes to my husband because he's the one that's been involved in Scouting for nearly 15 years (me only 6) and I draw from his experience as much as I can but in the hum-drum of our daily family life we rarely get an opportunity to sit down and kibitz about the BSA. The career, the kids, the activities, we just don't have the time.

 

Sctmom, I would never say to a boy, "Not my problem, get out of my Troop," if he approached me saying he thought he might be gay. I would encourage him to find someone to talk to if he were having these feelings, especially his parents and clergy and kindly explain that I can't help him with those issues. I would probably tell him that while I appreciate his confiding in me, I regret that I am not able to assist him in working out his issues with his sexuality. I also probably would not offer advice either. Unless the boy exhibited disturbing behavior or acted out sexually within the unit, I seriously doubt I would excommunicate him. But I also would not encourage continued talks about the issue, at least not with me, being a BSA leader. I may be wrong on this, but that's my common sense and moral feeling on what I would do in that particular scenario.

 

I pretty much like the way the military deals with this issue- Don't Ask, Don't Tell! And this should apply to adult leaders. If I thought any adult leader was trying to "recruit" a scout into his lifestyle in any way, shape or form, encouraging homosexuality in a Unit, sorry, do not pass GO, do not collect $200, you're OUTA THERE! As dsteele said, that's a crime and will not go unreported. However, if a leader is gay, his personal life is none of my business and if I don't know now, I don't need to know ever. The only thing that would make me have to act is like I said above, if THE LEADER ACTED on his homosexuality within the unit, in the presence of the boys, etc.

 

Whether homosexuality is morally straight or not is definitely not my call, but I will adhere to the BSA policy, which I too happen to agree with. For those that don't agree with the BSA policy, it's certainly not their right to make up their own policies and use the BSA name to forward their cause and beliefs. Those scouts and leaders that feel the BSA policy on homosexuality infringes on their personal rights are free to form, organize and recruit in their own organization, separate from the BSA and make up their own set of rules for THEIR beliefs but they have no right to try and reformat the BSA policies to match their beliefs on any issue.

 

On the same note, the parents that dressed their boy up in a scout uniform and went door to door collecting money for themselves in the BSA name, most Scouts and Scouters were appalled by this action as it goes against BSA policy. It's called FRAUD and is a crime.

 

Standing behind the BSA means adhering to the policies the organization has set forth, not using the organization to forward your own cause, even if that cause is the desire for the acceptance of homosexuality in a program you enjoy. In choosing to be a BSA member, a person agrees to give up certain things. If they are not willing to give up those things won't, or can't, the BSA is not for them and they aren't for the BSA. That's pretty clear cut.

 

If an Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor isn't able to give up his drinking, he certainly can't remain an AA sponsor. He has to choose between drinking and helping to lead others who have a desire to stop drinking. There is no fine line there and there isn't in the BSA either, when it comes to homosexuality.

 

A Marriage works much in the same way. Do we marry our spouses to change them or do we marry them because we accept them for who they are? If we marry our spouses to change them, we should have never married them because changing them is not our job. We don't get to control another human being. If you accept your spouse and marry them as is, without a warranty.. lol, you got involved for the right reasons, because you enjoy them the way they are, not the way you want them to be.

 

I hope some of that made sense!

Joni

[sctmom]

Why tell his parents? What if he feels that his parents will kick him out of the house or physically abuse him? Would you still tell against his wishes?

 

 

[acco40]

Scouting is an institution formed composed of fallible humans. IMO, Scouting has many, many wonderful virtues for both the adults and youth who participate in it.

 

Now, let's say that Scouting has a "rule" that we don't agree with 100%. Many on this forum have said that one can't pick and choose which Scouting tenets one wants to obey and which ones they won't. Remember when Bob White posted that a Commissioner should not be a Unit leader? Who is to say that tenet is any more or less important that the homosexual policy? I have not seen any weighting system applied. My contention is that I won't ever agree 100% with everything "national" comes up with but I will try to live with it and change (within the system) things I don't perceive as kosher.

 

Scouting has changed (female leaders for example) and will continue to change. I think that that is great. No institution has reached perfection just yet. Also, please remember that US Scouting (BSA), Canadian Scouting (Scouts Canada), and all of the other world organizations of Scouting have many differences from each other.

 

A question for the professionals. Given BSA's current policy, if another world Scouting organization allows avowed homosexual youth or leaders, may we in good conscience attend a Camp-o-ree that they attend?

[Bob White]

Unless you suspect that the parents abuse or neglect their children, you tell them. They are still the leagal guardians of that child, you are not.

 

If you suspect abuse or neglect you are required by law in most states to report your suspicions (you are not required to have hard evidence) to the local authorities.

 

You can recommend to the scout to talk with parents, physician or clergy. I warn you if you go beyond that and give the scout contact information to a social service, agency or organization, you could find yourself in some very real legal problems.

 

Besides we are Scout Leaders, not social service experts. Let's focus on our specific responsibility. Besides if a scout gets the flu during an activity we don't prescribe medication and we don't tell them what clinic or doctor they should go to. We comfort them to the degree we are trained and we call the parents. If needed we take them to an emergency room because we know that no doctor will treat them without the parents knowledge, but there are "community agencies" that would think nothing of counseling minors without the parents knowledge. That is not how scouting works.

 

Bob White

 

[sctmom]

Bob wrires:

You can recommend to the scout to talk with parents, physician or clergy. I warn you if you go beyond that and give the scout contact information to a social service, agency or organization, you could find yourself in some very real legal problems.

 

 

What is the difference between a social service and a church? I'm asking a serious question. No, I'm not talking about sending them to a gay community, I'm talking about letting them know where a teen counseloring center is.

 

There are many issues we are normally not trained to deal with. Personally, I'm not trained to deal with depression/possible suicide not with grief from losing a family member.

 

If a child says that they cannot talk to their parents about their sexuality because they may be harmed or kicked out of the house, how can you justify telling the parents?

Most parents don't blame a child for getting the flu on a campout. You are not comparing apples to apples.

 

[evmori]

Bob,

Right on the $$$$. The only reason I wouldn't tell a Scout's parents is if he asked me not to.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

My point scoutmom is we don't pretend to be doctors when a scout gets ill, don't pretend to be a psychologist or social service agency. You are there to educate. To present a specific program. One that does not include discussing or counseling sexual issues. That is not your role or the charge given you by the BSA or the parents who registered their child in the program.

 

Ed,

Playing devils advocate again, I hope.

If a scout ever said he wanted to tell me something that I couldn't share with his parents, all kinds of warning flags would go up. I would tell the scout that until I knew what he was going to say I could not make that promise. What I would promise him is that I would do what I could to help him and that it might include getting help from his parents if that's what would be the best for him. I would expect a teacher at his school to respond the same way.

 

If I thought my son's scoutmaster was keeping secrets from parents I would have him removed. That's not his role in my son's life.

 

Bob White

[sctmom]

I didn't say an adult volunteer in BSA should be counseling. I said refer them to someone who is trained. Isn't that what the original article was about? Did I miss something?

Going to the parents first isn't always in the best interest of the child. Perhaps it usually is, but not always.

 

[Bob White]

Sctmom,

unless you are prepared to report the parents to the authorities you had better refer the scout to the parents. You have no legal or moral authority as a volunteer in scouting to exclude the parents or legal guardians.

 

I applaud your intentions but you will not be helping the scout or the family by placing your opinion above those of his real parents or guardians.

 

Bob White

[Zahnada]

Bob,

 

Your counterarguments misrepresent some of the arguments explained here. So let's take this step-by-step.

 

1. A scout is found to be gay.

2. By the rules, if he is sure of his sexuality and "avowed" (this is a really vague rule that I will probably have issue with in another thread) then he cannot be a scout.

3. As adult leaders, it is our job to inform him of this decision.

4. Offer alternative programs to him.

5. If his sexualiy seems to be a major controversy in his life, offer resources that may help him cope.

 

You imply that I want to sit down and give the boy ink-blot tests, and word associations, and analyze his childhood. Maybe you assume that I will send him to a gay community. I will do neither. I will tell him that if he needs help, there are those out there who can give it to him.

 

I find your arguments discouraging because you take the stance that, "It's not my problem." "I'm not trained to help so I won't." I can't honestly believe you would deny to help such a child. If all scouts had that attitude, then the "mission" of scouting that we hold so highly would be baseless.

 

Once again, to make sure there is no misunderstanding, I am not fighting to keep gays in scouts. That's not the topic here (I'll fight for that at another time). I'm not pretending to be a psychiatrist. I am giving a boy options.

 

By the way, I want to clarify another point with you, Bob. I do hate to see ANYONE turned away from scouts. Yes, I hate to see pedophiles, rapists, sex-offenders, drug-addicts, and any other undesirable turned away from scouts. I hate it because these people live an unscoutlike lifestyle. That's why it saddens me. I'm sad that the world is not made up of Boy Scouts. And so "No" I do not want to staff my troop with those types of people. (And I do not consider gays automatically undesirable based solely on their sexual orientation. That is why I don't like this chain of arguments. It associates two different things in my mind. Just my opinion. It's off topic again)

[Bob White]

Zahnada,

 

So let's take this step-by-step.

1. A scout makes public that he is gay. (We are not in the business of "finding" an individuals sexual orientation.)

2. By the rules, we are to explain the membership requirements in the BSA to the scout and his parents or guardians.

3. Recommend to the parents or guardians that he seek counseling through his family, church or physician to determine if he is making a mature decision.

4. Abide by the membership rules of the BSA

 

That's it. As an adult leader we are here to provide the scouting program to qualified members. I care about each scout I have ever served, but only within the appropriate framework as a scout leader. We are not their parent, We Are not their confessor, We are not their psychologist or caseworker. It is inappropriate for a scout leader to act as any of those things.

 

I also care about youth not in scouting, but not within the framework of being a scout leader or a representative of the scouting program.

 

"Yes, I hate to see pedophiles, rapists, sex-offenders, drug-addicts, and any other undesirable turned away from scouts. I hate it because these people live an unscoutlike lifestyle. That's why it saddens me. I'm sad that the world is not made up of Boy Scouts."

 

Then be sad that they behave that way, that I can accept. But why in world would you sadden yourself because the BSA does not open the doors to those people. I would think you would be relieved that we do not knowingly expose children to their behaviors.

 

"And I do not consider gays automatically undesirable based solely on their sexual orientation."

 

Niether does the BSA. They consider homosexuals as well as a number of other social behaviors as ineligible for membership because of their inapropriateness as role models or their inability to support the mission or scouting.

 

The BSA has never said these were bad people only that their chosen actions are inappropriate for the mission of this private organization.

 

I hope that clarifies things,

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

[Zahnada]

Bob White,

 

I'm afraid we just aren't communicating. I'll make one last attempt to clear up my views for you. This will be my final word on the matter. If you want to discuss it further, we can use private messages instead of forcing everyone to read the same arguments over, and over.

 

"We are not their parent, We Are not their confessor, We are not their psychologist or caseworker. It is inappropriate for a scout leader to act as any of those things."

 

Absolutely correct. I have said nothing that would point to the contrary. However, we ARE their friend. We ARE role models. And we ARE mentors. I think those jobs require us to act a certain way. Once again you make it sound like I'm trying to psychoanalyze a boy or give him medication, or force him into certain clubs. Most certainly not. As I have said, I only want to give a boy options. When we make scouting no longer an option, we should be prepared to present the boy with other opportunities. Simply saying, "I'm sorry you can't be a scout, but if you like _______, then go to ______. If you need someone to talk to, you can reach any number of teen counselling services at _____." would be a help. I don't see how this is outside our bounds as a scout leader. And if the boundaries of scout leadership are as confining as you describe, then the program has major flaws.

 

"Then be sad that they behave that way, that I can accept. But why in world would you sadden yourself because the BSA does not open the doors to those people. I would think you would be relieved that we do not knowingly expose children to their behaviors"

 

This statement is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. Anyone who read my posts hopefully understands that I am not sad that boys are not surrounded by such people. Safety always comes first in my book. I expect that you will be more vigilant when quoting and arguing in the future instead of putting words in my mouth to make a point that I wasn't even arguing against.

 

""And I do not consider gays automatically undesirable based solely on their sexual orientation."

 

Niether does the BSA. They consider homosexuals as well as a number of other social behaviors as ineligible for membership because of their inapropriateness as role models or their inability to support the mission or scouting."

 

Sorry, Bob. If scouting dubs a person as "inappropriate as a role model" then they've been dubbed as people you wouldn't want your children around. In my mind, that means a label of "undesirable" has wrongfully been cast on these people. That is my view of the situation. I feel any other interpretation is simply rationalization to make the actions more publicly accepted.

 

Anyway, Bob, I fear that the board has grown tired of the same debate. We've managed to post nearly identical messages for half a week. Let's move on.

 

 

[dsteele]

Thre is one question on the floor, and it was directed at the professionals. It feels like I'm the only one here at the moment, so I guess it's up to me . . .

 

Acco40 asked "Given the BSA's current policy, if another world Scouting organization allows avowed homosexual youth or leaders, may we in good conscience attend a camporee that they attend?"

 

Acco, I have to admit that my first reaction was a theoretical reaction. Several different thoughts came shooting through my brain. The first was, what world scouting organization allows it? Then I realized that I don't know the answer to that one and don't really have time to worry about it, so I moved on to the next.

 

The next question was, "What was up with the first question?" My first question, not yours. I had originally read your question backwards and envisioned troops from other countries attending our national Jamboree. Or the BSA endorsement of the World Jamboree, or the Pan-American Jamboree, etc. And answered your question in that light with a "yes."

 

Then I re-read your question and looked at your profile. The light came on in my head and there's no way I can say "no."

 

I believe you're referring to the Candaian Camporee put on by the Canadian Scouting program every year in Sarnia, Ontario. Pay your toll, cross the Blue River Bridge and have a great time. As a DE in northeastern Michigan, I used to encourage my troops to participate in that event. I'd be a hypocrite to change that tune now.

 

Your conscience is your own and I can't answer for it. Only you can do that. But I sure wouldn't let it bother me. Your responsibility is to maintain the program and policies of the Boy Scouts of America. My advice is do that, and your conscience should let you sleep very well after a full day of activities.

 

Enjoy the Camporee.

 

Only one man's answer. Opinions may vary by council.

 

DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)