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Weekender

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WE - i think you got NJ mixed up with Merlyn - if i'm not mistaken, NJ is Jewish as Merlyn is the atheist.

 

NJ - as far as proselytizing, Jesus calls on his followers to do just that. As far as whether this is the correct forum for such witnessing, I maintain that it is. Duty to God and Reverence are both cornerstones to Scouting.

 

It's interesting to note the change in the Jewish religon regarding their proselytizing (neat word by the way).

 

I respect your right to believe however you choose - that's where Freedom OF Religion in America comes in I believe.

 

 

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Weekender, how can you say that YOUR religion is the one and only TRUE religion and millions of people throughout centuries of this world are wrong? The only difference in what you believe and what they believe is that Jesus is the way to salvation.

 

There are truths. Christianity is a "belief system". I can believe in God, morality and all that is right without worshiping Jesus.

 

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Sctmom,

 

I can say it because Jesus said it. It's really no different than warning a blind person that they are about to walk in front of a moving bus. If they choose to keep walking that is their choice but they will be no less injured because they refused to believe the bus was real.

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I can see the bus, I can hear the bus, and I can feel the bus. I don't need any faith whatsoever to know the bus exists. Believe in Jesus does require faith. You are free and welcome to believe and to state your beliefs. Yet, it does not mean that Jesus is the only way to know God and to be reverent to everyone else in the world. Not worshipping Jesus does not mean that a person doesn't share the same values and ideals.

 

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If I can't see it it can't be real?

 

As far as having the same moral standards, I'm afraid that isn't possible. If you use a different source document you will have different standards. The Jews use only the old testament and their standards are far different Christian standards. I know that what I beleive is true because the bible tells me and because there is more ducumentation to support it's acurracy than there is for any other book in history. I know Jesus was resurected because there were more than 500 witnesses.

 

How do you know that what you beleive is true?

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Sctmom,

 

This is my last post on this particular threadI promise. Christianity is NOT a belief system. A major distinction between Christianity and other religions is this fact. Christianity is not a philosophy one seeks to live a moral life. Belief in Christ Jesus is a response to God, an acknowledgment of one's own sinful heart, and a thankful acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. It is not predicated on how well one has followed a moral code. Salvation is based upon recognizing one's own corrupt nature, calling upon God, and responding to Him by accepting his Son's gift with a grateful heart. Salvation is not predicated on one's performance as a moral person. Is God displeased if we don't follow his teachings? Of course, he is! However, to enter his kingdom is not a matter of moral philosophy. The truth is not about philosophy. It's about having a relationship with God.

 

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From what I understand about Pascals wager, Weekender overstated the wager. When I first heard about it was explained in the chart that I have recreated from memory here. As you can see the thing had nothing to do with what belief system was correct it dealt with just the existence of a God or not the existence of a God and How believing or not believing in each case can effect you.

 

+-------+------------------------+

| |Believe |Do not Believe |

+-------+------------------------+

|God |G |B |

+-------+--------+---------------+

|No God |N |N |

+-------+--------+---------------+

G = Good things will happen to you when you die

B = Bad things will happen to you when you die

N = It does not matter when you die

 

Merlyn_LeRoy, I point you to Pascal final conclusion that the only way he could lose is if there was a God and he did not believe.

 

I will admit that if this is the only reason you believe, it is a poor reason. As far as what religion is correct, I will find that out too late to do anything about it. All I can do is take all the information given to me and make a decision based on my belief on what is from God and what is from man. I will allow each to make their choice on their own beliefs.

 

As far was what this has to do with the initial subject, not much except it was brought up by speculation of the beliefs behind the AHG. For that answer, if you are interested, I suggest you ask them.

 

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>Merlyn_LeRoy, I point you to Pascal final conclusion that the only way he could lose is if there was a God and he did not believe.

 

And his conclusion was wrong, for a number of reasons. For example, he is assuming that believing in a god produces good results after death, when I've already pointed out that some gods treat worshippers of rival gods more harshly than nonbelievers - if you pick the wrong god out of the thousands that people follow, you might be worse off than an atheist. There's no reason to assume that belief in a god results in a better afterlife compared to nonbelief, whether gods exist or not. Of course, you can assume this is true, but then you're just assuming your conclusion.

 

He's also assuming that belief in a god has no detrimental effects if gods don't exist; this isn't true, either.

 

Theists can be convinced to go on suicide missions if they think they'll get rewarded in an afterlife for it, like the 9/11 terrorists. If gods don't exist, the terrorists cut their own lives short on a false promise.

 

Theists sometimes refuse medical treatment for religious reasons, such as Jehovah's Witnesses refusing blood tranfusions; if gods don't exist, doing this simply reduces your chance of survival.

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Rooster and Weekender,

I will also step away -- peacefully and with great respect for you and your values and beliefs.

 

Back to AHG, I think what they are doing is great from what I saw on the web page. They have taken on a big challenge and I wish them well. If GSUSA is not meeting their needs, then this is a positive way of responding. I'm sure their daughters will benefit greatly.

 

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Merlyn_LeRoy:

 

First you are jumping to the conclusion, that Pascal and I are talking about one God in particular. I do not know exactly what Pascal was talking about when he posted his gamble, but in my case I am only talking about a Creator of all that is around us. It is this same Creator that in most religions have promised good things to those who believe. I hope this give you some understanding of where I am coming from. I could care less if you believe in God, The Great Sprit or Mother Earth. To me they are all one and the same and only the way to worship that Creator is different, and if I am wrong then so be it, I did my best to make the right choice.

 

Second in your response you mention all the Evil that has been done in the name of Religion. I will grant you that, but you are forgetting that comes from our human interpretation of religion documents. Even though these documents were given to man by their gods and goddess, these documents were also written and translated by man, and in that process errors will occur, we are only human. On that point as humans there exist among us many who will use any means necessary to get power over others. One of these means has been in the pass religion. This does not mean that religion is wrong or bad, it just means that the humans are humans and if we can use something to our advantage, a lot of us will do so. There are a lot of examples in of things that have been used in the manner in the pass. For example you have the state in use today by China and previously by the USSR. You have race that was used in South Africa and to a small part is still used by people in this country today. Even your non-belief in a Creator can be used to drive a wedge between people and to gain power by those who want it.

 

Finally, all I will ask you is to re-examine you non-belief and make sure that it exist not because of the fallacy of us imperfect humans, but because you truly believe that what exist is all that there is. This is the last I will post on this subject in this forum. If you would like to know what evidence I have used to make my decision about the truth please let me know.

 

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>First you are jumping to the conclusion, that Pascal and I are talking about one God in particular.

 

No, I'm just pointing out to you that you are ASSUMING that believing in a god is always a "win" and not believing is never a "win"; you can't assume this, and you don't know this.

 

>It is this same Creator that in most religions have promised good things to those who believe.

 

How Christo-centric of you; many gods don't care what you believe, they care what you DO. And some gods don't like idolatry, such as worshipping a human as a god.

 

Again, you are assuming you know what god(s) like and don't like, but you have nothing to back up your assumptions. I can assume very different possibilities.

 

>Second in your response you mention all the Evil that has been done in the name of Religion. I will grant you that, but you are forgetting that comes from our human interpretation of religion documents.

 

Not really relevant; I was only pointing out that the part of your diagram that says "does not matter" (if you believe or don't believe, if no gods exist) is wrong. Belief in god(s) can be detrimental, so counting belief as "does not matter" can't be assumed.

 

Pascal's wager is utterly worthless.

 

 

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And returning (sort of) to the origin of the GSUSA stance, which may appear to seem wishy-washy to some of you:

 

They FIRMLY believe that PARENTS are the right individuals to establish religious faith and beliefs for their own families.

 

Therefore, Girl Scout troops go to great lengths to be respectful of the different beliefs within the troop. Now, if a troop happens to be sponsored by an individual church, as many troops in my neighborhood are, and all members of the troop are Catholic (or fill in the blank ______ ) there is NOTHING to prevent that troop leader from using hymns, prayers and religious observances common to that faith. Many girls earn religious recognitions, attend services and do other very Church-like things within their troops in this situation.

 

If, however, a troop has a mixture of girls of different faiths - OH, and I'm not talking mixing a few Methodists in with the non-denominational Christians... I'm talking Christian, Muslim and Jewish all together now - THAT troop leader (me, for instance) would have to be an insensitive clod to end a troop prayer with "In Jesus Name We Pray" no matter how trippingly the phrase comes to my lips as a card-carrying UMC member. The girls in my troop, BTW, can still earn religious recognitions but they have to do it outside of troop activities because, well, I don't have time to chase down all those different materials and I'm not qualified to counsel any faith but my own.

 

So, it's true that we don't talk a lot about the Risen Christ in my troop, which I realize may cause some of you to feel I'm not a good Christian. Please forgive me. But the parents of the other girls in my troop have a right to NOT have their kid's faith questioned and potentially made into a dividing issue within the troop.

 

BTW, I have noticed no deficiencies in moral character in the Muslim or Jewish girls in my troop whatsoever. When they are adults and we no longer have a GS leader/troop member relationship, I will be delighted to witness my faith to them. Until then, I will can it just as I have to can my feelings about certain BSA policies.

 

If you want to be sure that your daughters have a Scout-type experience and are only exposed to your own religious beliefs, it looks like AHG or Awana or some other church-based group would be the logical and responsible parenting choice for you. Alternately, you can volunteer as a GS leader and build a troop solely from the girls in your home church, and keep them all safe from outside influences that way. I'm OK with you making those choices for your daughters - they are your children after all.

 

However, if you welcome the idea of your daughter getting to know girls that are different from themselves, including being of a different race, religion, physically or mentally disabled, and probably of different economic circumstances, IMHO an open-door, all-girls-welcome GSUSA troop is a good place to do that. Nothing says you can't take them to church youth group too.

 

Julia

 

(PS ... Oh, if the start of this thread was because some of you have heard rumors about GSUSA being a giant lesbian-loving organization that exists solely to promote the gay lifestyle - please learn some critical analysis skills to apply to what you read on the web. I've never seen anything remotely like that in an active 4 years in Girl Scouting. I think - but am not at all sure - that I MAY know a lesbian GS leader, but short of following her home and peeking in her windows I don't know how I'd find out for sure. I believe her troop is perfectly safe with her and would send my own daughter anywhere with her on Scouting business. Of course, GS are even more strict about 2-deep leadership than BS. Just because we don't beat lesbians up and hang them on fences does NOT mean that we are supporting child abuse. )

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