Questions of faith

[Sarge 10]

I have to be up front and honest with this topic. I have no real religious denomination to speak of.

I was baptized Episcopalian, as were my parents and as have been my children. I even did the Acolyte (alter boy) thing as a youth.

I do not attend church. It is difficult to go due to my work schedule (nights and weekends), and in the course of my job (Paramedic), I have seen a great many things to make me question the existence of a merciful higher power.

Looking down the road at Bears and Webelos, I'm seeing learning about and practicing faith has a LOT more to do with the program advancements.

Any ideas or suggestions of how to approach these issues as they get closer?

There is time. We're still doing the Wolf thing this year...

[Bob White 20]

Sarge,

Do you recal when you you first registered as an adult reading adn agreeing to the precepts of the BSA's Ceclaration of Religious Principles?

 

If so, do you still agree with and support those principles?

 

Here is what it says in the bylasw. Much of this was excerted i the adult member application form which when you signe you affirmed that you had read and agreed to these principles.

 

Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cl. 1

 

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law. The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

 

Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cls. 2-4.

The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.

 

Only persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.

 

 

So the question is Sarge ...do you agree with and will you support these principles? If your answer is still yes you have no problem. If the answer is no, then according to the Bylaws of the BSA you co do qualify as a member.

 

 

[IM_Kathy 32]

I was raised Catholic, my husband wasn't raised with any formal religion... neither of us belong to a church. Because of this my son does not have a church to work on a Religious Medal/Knot... but that does not mean that he cannot complete the "religious" portions of the rank advancements... we sat down and discussed what we each believed and why and he talked about what he understood and didn't and what he believed.

 

Like you I've seen a lot of junk in my life and it makes it very hard to find a "religion" that fits in what I can believe in... but, that does not mean I don't have some belief in a higher power. I once read a great definition that explains the difference in Religion and Spirtuality... "Spirtuality is the built in relationship we have with a power greater than ourselves... Religion is the translation of that belief with prayers and creeds"

[ghermanno 11]

Sarge,

 

For you and your son, it is what your family decides. The hard part for a lot of Cub Leaders is that the parents are the boys "Akela" for most advancements. It is a family program.

 

Now, if you are asking what to say if a cub asks you about "God", that is different. You must search your heart and ask him/his parents what his/thier feelings are on it. Remember, although it is difficult, with the exception of not believing in a higher power, we as Scouters must accept the parents/Cubs right to believe as they see fit (Christian, Musslim, Jewish, Wicca, ....).

 

Our duty, as Scouters, is not to convert but to let the boys know that they have the right to believe, even if it is different from ours. Guide them, via thier parents, to the people that thier parents want giving them religious training. They should NOT be ashamed nor should they feel anyone else is lesser because they believe different from them.

 

Good luck.

[Lisabob 13]

Sarge,

 

I hear you. I don't belong to any organized church and when my husband and I were bear and webelos den leaders, we had boys from a variety of backgrounds, ranging from no religious affiliation, to vaguely religious, to attending service 3 times a week. Most, but not all, were some type of Christian.

 

I thought a lot about how we would handle that requirement. One thing that entered into my thoughts was that we were chartered by a PTO and not by a religious organization. Had we been chartered by a church or other religious establishment, I think it would have been appropriate to talk with the Charter Organization Representative about how they viewed that religious requirement, and to seek guidance there, not just for our den, but for the whole pack (bringing the CM and CC into the discussion first, of course, since THEY should be the main contacts with the CO and not every Den Leader for him/herself). I don't know if that is a path that is available to you or not.

 

What we ended up doing was explaining the religious requirements to the parents, and asking them how they felt about it. We kicked around the idea of visiting local ministers from a variety of religious groups, but most parents felt that might be confusing for their kids. So instead, we asked each family to complete the religious requirements for bear and webelos with their child at home. We also explained how to work on the various religious emblems and offered to assist them in arranging with their church to work on those, if they wanted help. The local Lutheran church offered a series of classes and invited boys of all faiths to participate, with their parents. About half of our den chose to do that when the boys were webelos.

 

It worked out pretty well. And in fact, it served as a really nice way to encourage the boys to talk about religion and faith with their families. I know that we had some excellent conversations with our son as a result - it was tough sometimes because kids that age tend to ask penetrating questions and don't take noncommittal shrugs as answers. And although the requirements are really for the boy, it also made me think a lot more about what I believe, and why, and how I communicate my values and beliefs to my child. I figure that's good even if it is tough. And so despite not being terribly excited about organized religion in general, I found it to be a very worthwhile set of requirements. I hope you'll find the same.

 

Just keep in mind, the BSA does not require anybody to be a particular religion, or to belong to a religious establishment at all.

[Sarge 10]

Thank you for all your replies. After reading the responses and re-reading my posting, I think I should have chosen my words more carefully. I should have said: 'I have seen a great many things to make me question the existence of a merciful Supreme Being.'

I believe there is a higher power. I believe in intelligent design. I believe that the complexities and biodiversity on this planet did NOT happen by chance.

My problem comes with attributing it to a single entity.

[Kahuna 172]

Sarge: What I hear you saying is that you don't believe in the Judeo-Christian God, dispensing justice, mercy and punishment.

 

If it's any help to you, Buddhists believe that the Universe is all one thing: people, dogs, flowers, water, planets. We don't necessarily believe that there is a universal intelligence sort of guiding everything, but many of us do and it isn't separate from us. I'm not proselytizing for Buddhism here, but just suggesting that there are other ways of conceiving of a supreme being/higher power. I won't get into karma, except to say it takes the concept of mercy pretty much out of it by teaching that what goes around comes around.

 

A lot of Unitarian Universalists believe something like that as well.

[Trevorum 24]

Yeah, but if we admit we do not believe that God is the "ruling and leading power in the universe", some Judeo-Christian supremecist will tell us we do not qualify to be Scouts.

[Karen_216 10]

KAthy- Just because you do not belong to a church does not mean your son can not get a religious emblem. Many have workbook s or you can even chosse to attend classes some offer to cubs , you need not be a member. I'v heard of boys getting emblems just to be informed.

I don't belive in forcing my beliefs on anyone.

In this day of many finding out about misconducts on the behave of clergy many people are skeptacal about certain churces or faiths.That does not believe they have no belief in God or a higher being. i havent' gone back and look at the specific wording of the requirmetns But I believ some of them metnoin examinign what you can do to help your religious organziation but you can just as well be helpful to you community the same way you would your church- helping the homeless, being a plain old good person and following the doctorine of just doing good- or a good turn daily I would think would fulfill some of that.you could even go into a church you are not a memebr of and contribute food or clothing. Again, I did not look at specfics but the ranks are very broad in their requirements.

 

[Bob White 20]

Don't concern yourself with the opinions of Judeo-Christian supremacists. Instead know and understand the membership requirements of the BSA if you want to be a member or leader in the program.

 

The BSA says, and every adult is required to agree to this as a member, that "no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God..."

 

So if you do not agree or support that statement then the BSA says that you are not eligible as a member or leader in the BSA.

 

You must decide if you are being honest about your acceptance of this principle or ar you falsifying your membership qualifications. This is not a camping club. how much a person enjoys the outdoors has little do do with being a scout leader. The BSA is a values based educational organization and if you do not subscribe to their values then you are not eligible for membership or leadership.

 

And every adult volunteer signed a pledge that they agreed to those terms. So you need to ask yourself... are you being honest about who you are and about your eligibility in the BSA?

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Lisabob 13]

Bob, with all due respect I think the direction you are attempting to steer this discussion is not what the original poster was asking about at all. He was asking how people have handled the religious requirements in the Bear and Webelos program. You are veering off toward the path of religious inquisition of an adult leader. Please give it a break.

 

 

[Bob White 20]

No inquisition LisaBob I think you misunderstood the posts.

 

He explained how he felt about his beliefs and asked how to deal with scouts based on his feelings, didn't he?

 

My posts did not condemn him in any way. If he accepts the reiligious principles of the BSA then he has no problem as to how he relates with the youth.

 

He simply explains those principles to them. He helps them to find ways to show reverence to God based on THEIR faith, not on his. Regardless of what organizaed religion they belong to, or don't belong to the values of scouting are still relevant. If he does nothing more than show the relationship between the values of scouting and the Golden Rule he will help them in their faith development.

 

But he first needs to come to grips with his own beliefs and determine if they are compatible with the membership eligibility of the BSA. Because is his underlying question is "how can I help others to develop their duty to God, if I do not personally feel that?" the answer is...you can't.

 

Which is why the BSA asks you about it BEFORE you apply for membership.

 

My posts have not veered off the topic of the thread they are directly related to it.

 

His role is not to share his belief but to share the BSA values of Duty to God, and Reverence to God. But a leader must first have those values before they can instill those values, don't you agree?

[ScoutNut 147]

There is really no good reason why you should be talking to any youth, other than your OWN son, about your faith, or more especially, their faith.

 

You can answer questions directly concerning the Duty to God requirements in the Cub Handbooks. Anything more regarding faith, or lack of it, and you should direct them to discuss it with their parents.

 

If you feel that you will have a problem discussing these issues with your son, that is not something we can help you with. Perhaps you should start now, getting comfortable talking to your son about various small things so that when the time comes to discuss larger issues (and trust me, faith is only one of many that will come up) you will feel able to do so comfortably.

[Karen_216 10]

Here is the requirement for bears:

a. Complete the Character Connection for Faith.

 Know. Name some people in history who have shown great faith. Discuss with an adult how faith has been important at a particular point in his or her life.

 Commit. Discuss with an adult how having faith and hope will help you in your life, and also discuss some ways that you can strengthen your faith.

 Practice. Practice your faith as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or religious fellowship.

b. Make a list of things you can do this week to practice your religion as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious community. Check them off your list as you complete them.

 

you can choose to get the religious knot of your faith as well. this is not a very strict requirement. You dont' have to go to a church- look at the "as taught in your home". Maybe you are taught to go to church or maybe not. your faith can mean anything- it can be specific or a very broad- do good.

As long as he encourages others to practice in thier own way I dont' see a problem. He could go too far the other way. condeming others who do not believe the saem as you. I've seen people do that too (not in scouts- but some may have).

 

[packsaddle 753]

You can merely write to Bob White that, "...yes, I have read and understand the requirements." And it's possible that you won't hear another peep. If you signed the form then there is no further need for you to answer questions from Bob or anyone else on these forums who, for any reason, question your beliefs. Case closed.

 

As for the boys, another potential resource is a local Unitarian Universalist Church or Fellowship. They have a program for their youth called "Church Across the Street" or something along those lines. The program investigates a diverse range of religions and focuses on the actual practice of those religions in the community. I'm not suggesting that you join their church but I think they'd welcome a request for help along these lines.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)