Trouble in paradise.

[LPasn]

I am an assistant cubmaster at a pack. My son is a Weblos II.

 

This year was a rough start for the pack. There was a split with the founding leaders of the pack last year. They did everything they could to drain the resources of the pack. They even went as far as announcing that the pack was "folding" at the graduation last year. They told the cubmaster that he could not run the pack without them.

 

We started this year with less than twenty boys and less that $500 in the bank. We have over ninety enrolled now. The pack is on a solid financial base. Attendance is about forty regulars and another twenty or so attend at least once a month. We are on a roll.

 

Suddenly the cubmaster wants the den leaders to turn in a report of den dues paid each week and then turn in the dues. If the DL buys something for a meeting (supplies, etc.) they are to bring in a receipt and get reimbursed from the dues for their den. This was not discussed with the committee, it was the decision of the CM and his wife.

 

Now the CM has recruited an additional den leader for the Weblos II. The boys are getting ready for graduation and are working to finish the Arrow of Light. The additional den leader is working on knot tying with no regard for the requirements of the boys. The old den leader keeps trying to get the den back on schedule for their awards but the new den leader has his own plan. The CM seems to be backing the new den leader that he selected. Now it seems that the CM had a project planned for the den dues and the money is not there. I know that the den leaders pooled their dues to get the CM a plaque in appreciation of the work he did this year. The plaque is to be awarded at our Blue-Gold in a couple of weeks.

 

Tonight, I was told the CM is refusing to award an Artist pin to a Weblos who has not earned his Weblos patch.

 

I am at a loss to explain what is happening to the pack. We are in great shape for a pack that is dying.

 

I think that I have the answers to these questions already but I want to be sure. Can the CM require the den leaders to run their dens as he dictates? Can the den have two leaders? Who determines who is the den leader? What about the Artist pin? Is it only awarded when the boy has earned his Weblos patch?

 

I realize that I should be contacting the DE but he is so new that I have not met him. I also realize that someone is going to be hurt no matter what happens.

 

So what would you do?

[fotoscout]

The Artist Activity Pin is easy. The boy gets the pin if he has completed the requirements for that pin. It can even be used toward his Webelos Badge if necessary as the one activity pin from another group part of the requirement.

 

Dues is a more complicated answer. My first question would be: Do you have any written rules about how you dues money is handled? You are referring to this money as Den Dues, do you also pay Pack Dues or is Pack money generated some other way.

 

Since you are calling this money Den Dues I would suspect that this money is intended to go to the den leaders for den activitys and supplies. Accountability for all money received from the Scouts or their Parents is always a good idea. But if this is truly Den money, the CM should not be making plans to spend it without the approval of the den leaders. It may be awkward for the CM to request a report on this money from the DLs, but I dont think that there is anything too objectionable about it. Remember that financial accountability is a good thing. Although you may have good intention for the use of your den money, other DLs may be less scrupulous. In my Pack all money collected goes to the treasurer. The DLs submit receipts to the treasurer and then receive reimbursement in the form of a pack check.

 

Something sounds funny about recruiting a new DL for the Webelos II so close to their departure from the pack. There should be no question that the existing DL is in charge. I would think that there is more to this part of the story.

 

You need to have a sit down with your CC, before going to the DE.

 

[anarchist]

Go buy the pin and award it at the next Pack meeting and dare the CM to say anything...there I got that off my chest! Sorry, I'm in a bad mood today.

 

No the CM can't not award a pin...show him the requirement check off...and remind that we can not add nor subtract from the requirements

Call the CC...and the COR and the CO if needed to slow the CM down. Remember the CO is the power here, they control who does what in the pack not the CM. CMs job is to lead, to schedule to facilitate, to help, to train,to suggest, but...not to dictate.

Asking for Den dues is just plain wrong if those dues are for the supplies the boys use...asking for an accounting is not...my sheet showed that during the arts and crafts phase of my den leading it cost me about $10.00-12.00 per week out of pocket in addition to the 'dues' and it was worth every dollar!

But some dens might be having a 'problem', so the accounting issue is proper. BUT I would turn it into the CC not the CM.

 

If I was the Webelos leader, I would quietly ask the 'new' Webelos leader to assist or get the heck out of dodge...period. The CM can not appoint or unappoint a DL without the backing of the committee, the CC...and mostly the CO.

And the Webelos Leader should also tell the CM to Back off (HE SHOULD HAVE HIS WEBELOS II parents in his corner...right? My WEB II parents would have neutered the CM if he tried to make a change in my program.)

 

Seems a big committee meeeting is called for and Fast...

 

might want to bring a rail, if the majority feels this guy has gone off the deep end?

[johndaigler]

WELCOME, LPasn!!!!!!

 

 

We collect "Den dues" and the money is managed by the DLs. Everyone knows that you could double those dues and the DLs would still frequently shell out personal cash to accomplish their Den activities. As a Pack we need to organize this better, but I don't want to get rid of this process.

 

However, as I understand Pack finances, I've always believed this was a bending of the rules. Packs, not Dens, collect Dues. "Den dues" should be turned over to the Pack, and DLs should be reimbursed in a manner similar to the one described by LPasn.

 

I can't say I like much about this CM and I'm definitely troubled by the lack of mentioning of CC and PT when it comes to Pack monies and decision making. But, PLasn, like all of us, you need to be sure of the rules, so you can help the Pack succeed.

 

CMs don't "hire" DLs, the CC and the COR do. A Den has ONE DL, but I believe it can have more than one ADL.

The "Founding Fathers" don't have the power to fold a Pack.

The Committee - particulary the CC and PT - should be planning and controlling the spending of monies. If you have a system where the DLs have control, (I think it works, though as I said, I believe it's against the rules) everyone should be aware of the rules and respect them --- or get the Committee together and change them.

 

Good Luck,

 

jd

[Vicki]

I think I'd probably sit down with the CM first and ask him exactly what he thinks he's doing (in as nonconfrontational a way as possible). It almost sounds like he just went to a training class or talked to somebody who said, "this is the way you should be doing it" and jumped without thinking. You're assistant CM, in an ideal world, since you're supposed to be on the same page as the CM, he should have at least let you know what he was planning, if not gotten some input from you. On the money thing - yes, the money should go to a Pack Treasurer in an ideal world. In the real world, I'd think only "big-ticket" items like payments for the B&G banquet, etc., are handled that way (usually).

 

This needs to be dealt with quickly though - that Arrow of Light is too important! Knots can be handled any time...

 

Vicki

[scoutldr]

It's not the DE's job to get involved in unit squabbles. That's what your Unit Commissioner (and District Commissioner) are for. If the Pack is in danger of "folding" your UC should be alerted ASAP. Preventing units from folding should be his/her #1 priority.

[LPasn]

Thanks for the welcome, john daigler.

 

Some things that I need to clarify.

 

We collect Den Dues in the dens for den activities, supplies, etc. The pack is supported by revenue from popcorn sales. Special events like Blue-Gold are funded by ticket sales campouts are handled by fees assessed to those who attend.

 

CM has a Webelos II so he and his wife are Webelos parents. The added DL has a son in Webelos II also.

 

The problem has begun over the last three weeks. The committee meeting was held two weeks ago. None of the plans over dues collection was discussed at that meeting. Nothing was said about the new leader in the Webelos den. We had a Webelos campout two days after the committee meeting. Then at the next den meeting, the problems started. That was last week. This week my son complained about working with knots again.

 

I have emailed the CC and asked about what is going on. He is new to his position but he is sharp and willing to do what it takes. His wife has been pressed into service as the PT. I am sure that they are trying to get a handle on what is going on also.

 

I have never seen a Unit Commissioner or District Commissioner at one of our meetings. When we were down to fewer than twenty boys they did not come to a meeting. The attendance is good but the little petty fighting is starting to distract from why we are there. Some of this is happening in front of the parents. A lot is happening in front of the boys. I am trying to get a solution that the committee can handle and keep going for years. I have only a few months left but the boys need a strong pack next year and for years after that.

 

[ScoutNut]

It sounds like your CM has gone over the edge. As has been mentioned, money & leaders are not his job. The Cub Scout program is his job and as such PROBLEMS in a den would fall to him to correct. Your den is having no problems.

 

There can only be one (1) registered Den Leader at a time. BSA's system does not allow for multiples. Other registered adults in a Den can be Assistant Den Leaders, but NOT Den Leaders. Not that it should matter all that much. You should both be working TOGETHER for the boys.

 

Sit this new Den Leader down and get him with the program. If he was just "appointed" odds are he has taken zero training. Grab a Webelos Handbook, the leader, & a calendar and go over with him EXACTLY what still has to be accomplished before the boys can crossover to a Boy Scout Troop.

 

Have your CC talk to the CM. The CM is taking some of the CC's and Treasurer's job on himself. This needs to be addressed by the CC, and ASAP.

 

Do NOT give the CM any of your Den dues until such time as this has been sorted out. If he asks, tell him he needs to talk to the CC, period. Do not get drawn into any other discussion with him.

 

Good Luck & hang in there.

 

 

[iveksler]

LPasn, it seems that that your CM's has much bigger problem than you describe. I am not going to comment on your Dues issue. Coming from the Troop, I can only say that any financial decisions are handled by Troop Treasury and only with an approval of the Committee. Anything outside of this rule is totally unacceptable and it is clearly stated in the SOP. In fact, if the purchase is made without formal approval of the Committee, Treasury has the power of not issuing a reimbursement and the purchase is considered a donation to the Troop.

 

The big problem I am seeing with your CM is the fact he likes to make decisions impacting the entire Pack without Committee's involvement. I have seen this time and time again, Cubmasters and Scoutmaster get so wrapped up in the every aspect of the Pack/Troop, they loose focus of their own job. I think someone needs to explain to your CM that his job is to focus on the program, which is camping, teaching boys skills and provide the support to DLs and ADLs. The day-to-day Pack operation, leadership, training, financial stability, etc. is responsibility of one person - COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN. CC is responsible to recruit a Treasure to take care of Pack's finances. CC is responsible for recruitment of Advancement Coordinator to take care boys' advancements. Same goes for all other positions. If your CM "appoints" someone in the leadership position without your CC's approval, he undermines the leadership of your CC and does great disservice to the entire Pack.

 

I suggest you seek advice from the Council. Perhaps they could explain to your CM that operating a Pack is not a 'one-man-army' job.

[falcon93]

In our pack, we are coming up on our 2nd year since forming.

 

The money should go for the operation of the dens. They only real authority the Cubmaster when it comes down to the true nuts and bolts of it is to 1) Turn in paper work for advancement 2) Ensure a safe meeting place and 3) Look pretty as he or she plays Master of Ceremonies at the Pack meeting and Blue and Gold.

 

The pack committee runs the shows based on what the parents AND kids want to do. The pack committee handles leadership assignment, they even handle who holds Cubmaster. It sounds like it might be time for the Assistant Cubmaster to step up and take a new position. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders in terms of the direction you guys need to go.

 

Get the committee involved and if you want the extra backing - pull your Unit Commissioner (If you are like us you may not have one) or Distric Commissioner in on the meeting to put this fire out. They Cubmaster needs to know what his role is, and it isn't as inflated as he thinks.

 

If he doesn't like it, he can always help the DE meet his numbers by starting a new unit.

 

 

[Cubmaster-Fred]

I agree with most of the posts here. From another cubmaster, I say someone needs to rein him in.

 

Falcon, I agree with you except that the cubmaster, not the committee, runs the show. The cubmaster is responsible for the program, organizing it and running, pack and den. The committee's job is to ensure the cubmaster has what he needs to run a quality program.

 

CMF

[Cubmaster-Fred]

Sorry, part of my post got cut off.

 

The COR in conjunction with the CC decides who will fill what leadership position. In my pack the DL and ADL assignments are decided on by the CC and COR with input from the CM.

 

Also, like stated, all money should be handled by the treasurer.

 

CMF

[LPasn]

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions and support.

 

We had the Blue/Gold last Saturday. The CC and I talked Saturday about what needs to be done. Things got worse at the meeting this week. The WII DL has quit. The CM said everything was fine, that is what he wanted. The committee meeting is going to be delayed but it will be a hot topic next week. Attendance is extremely low.

 

The CC has spoken out on the matter and has gotten some guidance from others. I trust him to make the right decisions. My son will graduate in May. When he crosses over to Boy Scouts, I will be the Assistant Scoutmaster who changes his scarf, ribbons and hat. I am not interested in staying with the pack as it is.

[Rixkidz]

in our pack...

 

Pack money is handled by the Pack treasurer (me)..

Den Dues is handled a the Den Level, BUT they have a form that have to turn in with receipts in June to verify that the fund were spend correctly (I borrowed that policy from GS-USA)

 

We have a Webelos 1 den that two new leaders joined last year.. they insisted to be called Den Leaders, Packmaster accepted it and so did council so I let it go.. but they were insistant that they WANTED to be EQUAL leaders NOT co leaders, or assitant leaders (although I am not sure why)