new scouts on winter camp outs

[Lisabob]

Where I live, it is common for scouts to cross over into troops sometime during late February/early March. Feb. is usually the nastiest month of the year in terms of weather and it isn't uncommon to be talking about tent camping in single digits or negative digits, lots of snow, ice, etc.. Of course we train our scouts to prepare well for these conditions and typically things work out fine. We also hold a shake down camp in late March to orient our new guys to the troop, equipment, basic outdoor skill, etc.. Now March can be bad too, but at least these new guys have several weeks of meetings under their belts before they go on their first colder-weather camp out and we can be pretty sure they have the right gear and know what to do with it at that point. It also gives us time to get the parents on track regarding what sort of equipment their kids really need, and for them to either buy or borrow what they need to have.

 

This year, we've just learned that we'll have a small group of new scouts joining us the very first weekend in February. Our Feb. camp out, a week later, was organized long before we knew this and is centered on "winter survival" skills. It really wasn't designed with brand new scouts in mind because we expected them to join us later in the month. (We have a larger contingent of new scouts joining us at the end of Feb. also.) Our current scouts have been preparing for this camp out for a good bit but the new scouts almost certainly would not be prepared for this. What to do?

 

A couple of options: tell these new scouts they have to wait until the March camp out; invite these new scouts to join the troop on Saturday for the day time only (we camp Friday night to Sunday late morning and this camp out is local); take them with us for the whole weekend and hope for the best.

 

I'm leaning toward the middle option. It gives the boys a chance to participate but doesn't require nearly as much preparation, skill, or knowledge on their part about how to stay warm in the elements. And if they are really cold and miserable, well it is only for the day and they can look forward to a warm bed that night. I admit I'm biased though because when my son joined the troop three years ago he went camping just a few days later, poorly prepared for the weather, and he nearly quit on the spot at the end of that weekend. Some boys he crossed over with did quit, and several others had to be talked out of quitting just like my son. He laughs about it now but it wasn't funny at the time. If I'd known then what I know now, I would not have allowed him to attend that camp out.

 

What's your view? For you Southerners like BrentAllen, keep in mind we're talking really cold weather, not a balmy 20-40 degrees (that's spring, thank you very much) .

[OldGreyEagle]

Lisabob, you have provided an excellent description of the event, share it with the parents of the new scouts. Let them decide if their son is able to participate. I can see few things worse than welcomming new scouts in a Troop and telling them how happy you are they are part of your group and then immediately exclude them. Invite them contingent on the parents permission.

[Venividi]

I would lean towards the middle option. Cold weather camping requires training and a shakedown for safety. New scouts joining the week before won't have that opportunity (unless there is a possibility that your troop leaders can find a way to do training and shakedown during the week between joining and the campout).

We did lose a lot of new scouts one year after particularly nasty weather on a March campout (and this was a cabin campout). Despite instruction on proper attire, both to scouts and parents, many of them still came unprepared.

 

 

[Ohio_Scouter]

Hi Lisa,

 

Whose bright idea was it to foist the new group of scouts on you earlier rather than later in February? If it's a done deal, then you have a decision to make to accommodate the new scouts.

 

I don't think it's fair to change any of the other scouts' plans for the February winter survival skills campout since it was well-planned out long ago. I agree with OGE. Let the new boys' parents decide whether their boys are prepared to spend the entire weekend with the older scouts, or perhaps just participate during the day on Saturday. Since the camp is local as you say, the new scout parents can pick up their boys on Saturday evening after dinner if necessary.

 

Winter has just returned to our southern Ohio area with a low of 0 degrees F. forecast for this weekend. It will probably be significantly worse in Michigan in early February.

 

Good luck!

[John-in-KC]

Lisa,

 

I like OGE's idea. May I suggest your SM meet with those parents outdoors near a campfire during the next troop meeting.

 

You may have some young people whose families are outdoorsy, and who understand layers, ground insulation, keeping dry, and cold weather bags already. They may be able to participate. Yes, patrol integrity will get broken, but first impressions matter as well. Saying no right out of the starting blocks feels like a bad idea for keeping the young men in the Troop.

 

You will probably have some people who have no clue. For them, inviting the new Scouts to come out for the day, and get field experience training on cold weather operations, will help. There are opportunities to meet site selection and menu planning for T-2-1, even informally!

 

Let us know how the PLC decides to integrate

 

To Ohio_Scouter: Once upon a time, dens didn't migrate to Troops in one fell swoop. Individuals migrated as they hit their 11th birthday. A Troop had to be ready to accept a new Scout anytime of the year. Even these days, if Web A and his Mom/Dad decide Troop 123 meets the need better than Troop 456, you may not get a pre-formed set of kids, rather onesy/twosies... There's no mandated vertical integration of youth from Cubbing to Boying.

[scottteng]

Thank you for the reminder to thank the good Lord daily that he gave me the good sense to live in Florida. Our troop is going hiking this weekend the low is expected to be 41 degrees. We do have weather issues though not camping much after summer camp til school resumes due to heat.

[scoutingagain]

I like the idea of inviting them for the day on Saturday. Asking for parental permission is inviting a repeat of the mistake you made three years ago. Some parents may not fully grasp what their son is asking them to do and if one is allowed to go they get the, "But John's going. I don't want to be the wimp." thing.

 

With only a week to prepare them, I'd invite them for the day. I sincerely doubt they will be put off by the invitation and by the end of the day will probably be very happy to head home.

 

SA

[Lisabob]

Ohio Scouter, our troop doesn't have a "feeder" pack. Instead, we recruit from all 10 packs in our town, typically drawing between 8-15 boys from a variety of packs. This year, we are getting a few new scouts from a pack that traditionally has not sent us scouts, and they decided last summer (before they were thinking of cross-overs, I'm sure) to hold their B&G early in the month. Nothing we can do about that, other than to welcome them a little sooner than we had expected.

 

As a matter of fact, this year it looks like we'll get boys from four or five different packs in town. I'm feeling pretty good about it because rather than having a den leader decide for their whole den that they'll all join Troop xxx, it seems we've convinced many families to look carefully at each troop and decide what is the best fit for their individual child. It also suggests to me that we're doing a better job than in the past (when we got boys mainly from just 2 packs based on ties to families already in the troop) of reaching back to the cub packs and providing them with program support all year round. All four troops in town run good programs and have reasonably good relationships with each other so it works out fine this way for all concerned.

 

 

[Ohio_Scouter]

Thanks for the information, John. I guess I've been away from Cub Scouts for too long.

[Ohio_Scouter]

Thanks, Lisa. Sounds like a good type of "problem" to have, but I guess you have to become more flexible as a result.

[scoutldr]

I think taking brand new scouts on a "winter survival" campout as their first camping experience is irresponsible. I remember as an 11 year old, lying there all night shivering uncontrollably with my teeth chattering just praying for morning to come (and this was mid-atlantic weather, probably above 20F). I thought I was reasonably prepared with my brand new official BSA sleeping bag from JC Penney...a summer weight bag. My mom didn't know any better. I had no clue about dressing in layers, changing into dry underwear, insulating under the bag, wearing a hat, etc. I almost never went back. To this day I absolutely HATE cold weather camping.

[raisinemright]

This is a tough one. However, because htey are brand new and you don't want to turn them off to Scouting or winter camping, I'd be leaning toward telling them that they need to sit this one out, but that there will be a special meeting just for these new guys to help prepare them for campouts, including winter ones.

 

You could have some of the older scouts teach about equipment, layering, wehre to get stuff cheap, food etc.

 

One way out may be to tell the parents that each boy going has spent a great deal of time and money researching and purchasing his special gear. As an example, my son is a tenderfoot, (should get 2nd class in the next few days) we're into camping, he's two months from earning the year round camping award and is well into his backpacking merit badge. They did the winter experience at D-A scout camp last weekend. Even with all the stuff he had, we still needed to get him some special gear for winter camping.

 

To expect a bunch of new crossovers to be able to come up the with the right gear in two weeks is pushing it.

 

I would think the parents would be grateful to not have to scramble so hard for stuff.

[Eagledad]

Happy Oklahoma Winter Day All (35 F)

 

I like the Saturday visit idea. I don't know if all your older scouts are camping, but ending the new scouts saturday with a lock in, pizza and a movie is a possible idea.

 

Barry

[mk9750]

If one Scout's experience can shed light on your situation, let me opine:

 

Back when I was a Lion Cub Scout, it was traditional, at least in our area, for a boy to cross to a Troop at the Pack meeting right after his 11th birthday. I remember how proud I was when my new Scoutmaster handed me my Troop neckerchief, and told me sadly that the next campout was Klondike, and being new, I wouldn't have the experience or the equipment to go. He told me that if my parents agreed, and if I already had my winter sleeping bag, insulated boots, etc., he would let me go. But only with my parents permission.

 

Nothing was going to stop me from going on my first campout. The coolest guy in our school was in the Troop, and I wanted to be just like him. So I convinced my mom and dad that I was ready for the campout. I think I even told them one of my buddies was going to lend me good gear (this wasn't quite truthful).

 

Friday night, the temperature was -9. Saturday, the high was -5. Saturday night, the low was -12. Mark's rubber boots over his tennis shoes, with cotton tube socks (I remember to this day they had blue stripes at the top), weren't enough to prevent frostbite on the two small toes on my right foot, and the one smallest toe on my left foot. I came home, and my mom had to take me to the doctor. On the way home, I was told how there "is no way in hell you are going back to Scouts! If that damn leader of yours isn't smart enough to bring you guys home, there's no way you are ever going to see a campout again!"

 

My Scouting career lasted all of three weeks. Why? Because I was too enthusiatic (and not Trustworthy enough), my parents too trusting, and my SM not firm enough to stick by his original decision. I have regretted not continueing in Boy Scouts since I was 11 years old, and especially since I have become active as an adult.

 

As for what option I would select if I were in your shoes, I also like option 2, with the caveat that parents accompany there son. Anyone can survive a day outside in the cold, and if the weather or the manner a boy (or his parents) dress prevents that, the option of leaving remains open.

 

Our Troop does everything short of forcing our new Scouts to go on their first Klondike. But our guys don't cross until April and sometimes May. We have months to get Scouts up to speed on how to prepare for cold weather camping. "surviving" their first Klondike is like a right of passage in our Troop. But I can't imagine ever trying to ask a brand spanking new Scout to come on a Klondike with us.

 

Mark

[Beavah]

Yah, Lisabob. Since yeh say there are 10 packs in your town, I imagine we're talkin' urban/suburban kids, not country lads, eh? So yeh really can't expect that they've been to huntin' camp with dad, or ice fishin', or snowmobile to school regularly or anything like that? They aren't likely to really have their own cold-weather gear and some supervised experience with it?

 

And yeh don't have a cabin-type shelter with some heat to put 'em in at night if you decide they or their gear aren't up to snuff?

 

In that case, safety first. Cold weather is really tough on small guys, and downright perilous in flimsy cotton gear. Yeh could get by for several years doin' this and start thinkin' it was just fine, and then send a kid home missin' some toes or shedding some skin from his ears and nose. I'd say, "Nope, sorry, wait for next month's campout." One month ain't very long, and the parents will respect you for your sound judgment.

 

If you do keep thinkin' about this, review Sweet Sixteen #2,5,8,9 with a lot of time for reflection on what you'd want your son's first campout to be. Then take a real hard look if you have the adult and older scout resources to supervise each one of these lads tightly. Like almost one-on-one, just like in webelos.

 

I think you're mostly pickin' up risk and a lot of extra duty for your older scouts who were lookin' for a fun challenge, without gainin' much at all.

 

But I reckon' yeh already know this in your heart, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)