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Jeffrey H

Properly wearing the OA sash on the uniform

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johnponz, are you responding to me? I absolutely do not advocate the wearing of the sash on the belt and in fact could quote publications spanning a few decades where has has been forbidden. That I do not agree with the Chair does not make me wrong and him right by virtue of his title. Folks in leadership roles are often wrong. I'll guess he has not followed the progression of changes to the OAHB. If he is changing policy then perhaps he should also see that the OAHB is written in such a way as to make it clear and not open to interpretation. I can see how some read it contrary to how I read it but I follow what I was taught and what I can defend with resources deaaling with correct punctuation. But really believe what you want it matters not to me as I no longer have a pony in this race.

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WWW,

 

The post was not really meant for you but for the Texas Scouter.

 

When the chain was started many moons ago, the main topic was wearing the sash on the belt. He has contended that this is allowed, and has refused the multitude of references saying it is not. Whether or not you can wear it at special events is a side point of this thread, and I kind of agree with you that it is up to interpretation. That being said, the highest authority at National who can say what the rule is happens to be the National Chairman so what he says is probably the "official" interpretation.

 

I would not do so, but really see little wrong with a Scout who wants to wear the sash to an event such as a "court of honor," but my interpretation or opinion really does not matter. I guess if you want to be technical this interpretation should come from the Supreme Chief of the Fire of each individual lodge, but the Order of the Arrow Committee through the National Chairman has clearly given their guidance.

 

Before BP comments, I would prefer that the Youth of each lodge make this decision through the executive committee (incorrectly called the executive board in some lodges-it is a technicality but each non-profit organization is allowed only 1 executive board and in this case that is the Council Executive Board). However under current OA rules, the executive committee cannot modify the insignia rules as delineated by the National Order of the Arrow Committee.

 

The Supreme Chief of the Fire does have that authority.

 

As an aside, the original poster on 5/7 said his question was answered and he would not wear the sash on the belt. However the discussion continues. . .

 

(This message has been edited by johnponz)

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Why can't the OA just get rid of the no sash on your belt rule and instead issue guidelines for doing so?

 

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No what I contended was that My Lodge in the 1980's allowed it to be carried or stored on the Belt..which It did...right or wrong...My lodge allowed it and went so far as showing us specifically how to Fold it and to place it on the Right side so we all carried it the Same..maybe they should have had better internet back then

 

I said I would get a New Edition of the OA Handbook and see what it said about wearing, storing, carrying (or what ever you want to call it) on the Belt...and I did and I posted what it says in the OA Handbook..Nothing in the OA HandBook says it can't

 

I contended that not every OA member sees or reads the OA WEBSITE AND BLURP ABOUT having the Sash on the Belt and I contend that if the Ruling has been made it should be Made in the Handbook not just some Obscure BLURP..

 

Yea I said the Handbook was provide free and Someone polite reminded me that it is not free because we actually PAY A FEE to attend Ordeal..big whoopie...It is Not Like they say "Hey Welcome To OA...Go to Council Office and Buy your LODGE FLAP, SASH, and OA HANDBOOK..Oh and get Internet and Read this website because It is really all that Maters, It Trumps the Rule Book"

 

The Dominate Poster have been rude in their replies and Me and Others are expected to Bow Down to their Wishes.

 

I posted the Stupid Link to the Photograph as an Example of What Clearly the Handbook was eluding to as not the proper way to Wear the Sash..Arrow Pointed Down over the Left Shoulder.. I never Bolstered as Was put that it gave credence to being allowed to carry the SASH on the Belt..

 

and PS..My Lodge Council is looking into the Sash Placement and will make their decision and I will abide by it...Until then I will just drag it along in the Dirt or carry a Briefcase to place it in out of sight..or most likely leave it at home since when representing OA I will be wearing Regalia and won't need a Sash to be Identified as OA...Hey I can not find the OA Members for All the Guys Dressed Like NATIVE AMERICANS

 

Yall have a Very Pleasant Day now

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jpstodwftexas, your lodge does not have the authority to "allow" the sash to worn on the belt. If you feel an overwhelming need to wear your OA sash on the belt, in spite of it being pointed out to you in a crystal clear manner that it is incorrect - go for it.

 

For that matter, wear it as a headband - nothing in the OA handbook specifically states that is not allowed.

 

 

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Once again I never said they are Authorizing I said they are looking into it and Will make the Decision.

 

They Can Rule that that the Website Announcement is official and Do no further Research

 

or they Can ask for clarification and do a little research and get a First Hand answer

 

Sometimes A Challenge is better than blindly Following

 

As already pointed out Not every time their ruling have been correct..It is better to be Challenged than just blindly follow

 

It is My Understanding that the Youth are Responsible for the Rulings and that "Stole From the Official OA SITE"

National Leadership

The national chief and vice chief are youth Arrowmen elected to one-year terms by the section chiefs attending the annual national OA planning meeting. They serve as members of the national Order of the Arrow committee, providing youth involvement in decisions affecting national OA policy. They serve as the presiding officers for national OA events, and are advised by the adult national Order of the Arrow chairman and the professional OA team leader. In addition, each year the national chairman appoints approximately 50 Arrowmen to serve on the national Order of the Arrow committee to oversee the OA program.

 

Yet it seems that An Adult Made the Decision and nobody has the Authority to Change it..

 

What good is any Leadership if only one Adult Runs the Show

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Sorry, I guess I'm too old school and don't understand the random capitalization of words. Also, with your proliferation of pronouns, I'm don't think I understand your post. Please edit and clarify the multitude of "they" in our post?(This message has been edited by acco40)

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No sash on belt. Sash is a sash not a belt loop. However you choose to wear it is up to you, but you'd be wrong in doing so. But...guides are guides and not the bible.

Whittl'n chip and Tot'n chip patches were shaped for bottom of old pocket as temp, not flap. Only Outdoor Activity award shaped for flap for Cubbies.

 

My 2 cents,

 

Tim

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Why must the OA sash be worn only at OA events? As a 17 year old SPL, I enjoy wearing my sash at what my troop has deemed "appropriate times." When we are required to wear our Class-A dress uniform, everyone in my troop who is an OA member wears their sash. We all enjoy the opportunity to talk to questioning parents and community members about what the sash represents. They in turn are very impressed at what the sash means, and all the hard work and community service it represents. If the OA sash is not meant to be worn for "showing off," then BSA should get rid of the merit badge sash. What other purpose does the MB sash hold other than for "showing off?" And even then, it is showcasing the individual scout's accomplishments. Therefore, the OA sash, something more prestigious than the MB sash, should be able to be worn with a dress uniform. It is hard to believe that there is a rule prohibiting the wear of an OA sash outside of OA sanctioned events. Who else other than OA members are going to see it? That rule should be amended.

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Because, DOD, that's what the BSA Uniform and Insignia guide states. Your proper "Class A" uniform already includes your lodge flap (indicating you are an active lodge member with paid up dues) and the OA pocket dangle (aka, "pocket rocket"), indicating your national OA membership. Why in the world do you need yet another doo-dad indicating your Arrowman status? The guidelines state that the sash is to be worn only at OA functions or when representing the OA, such as when serving as a member of an election team. As a "loyal" member of the BSA, you should send your suggestion to National in a letter recommending the change. But until the policy is changed, you should set the example and wear the uniform correctly. That's what real Arrowmen do as part of those "weighty responsibilities."

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I have to admit I haven't been back in Scouting for long so while I've paid my dues and have the new lodge flap sewn on my pocket, I haven't worn my OA sash in over 20 years, I don't even know if it would fit around me (joking....maybe not joking.) I have spotted a few Arrowmen with their sashes tucked into their belt at events or in online pictures. My first reaction was that I rather liked it. I attend at least 1 Pow Wow a year to watch the dancing competitions and pick over the bone carvings, beads, etc. So I frequently see full regalia dancers with traditional wampum belts slung over their shoulders in different fashions AND hung from their belts the same way OA sashes are being done. As I said before, I liked the look of the OA sashes on the belt when not in use and probably for the very reason of the similarity to what I've seen at Pow Wows.

With that said, Uniforms are what set us out from the rest of the crowd as Scouts. They are utilized by military branches, union members, priests, schools, and many other groups. Frequently out of necessity and safety standards as much as identification or decoration. Uniforms have built into them as much societal tradition or tribal knowledge as any of our other traditions and those all got started some how. All traditions have been adjusted, butchered, and outright stolen. Far to quickly the new ways become the old ways as time marches on. For now the rule book says the Arrowmen can't wear the sashes on the belt but that may change. If you don't like the rule then be that change. It's a relatively free Republic, you can start a writing campaign and try to get it changed. Another way to introduce sashes on the belt might be something like regulating it to only times of wearing regalia and only if the sash is beaded or in a Wampum style. Document private examples to be submitted to National for consideration. Leaders need to know how to change things the right way within the realm of group expectations and regulation and not just recognize the change is needed.

Just an example of why we follow uniform rules. I'm not much of a football person and if Pastor Tim really wants to have his old beat up Lincoln to be decked out with Kansas City Chiefs seat covers and license plate holder in a big Seattle Seahawk town that's his choice and right. But if he wears a Chiefs sweater or jersey on every football Sunday during Services instead of his suit and tie...well it's still his choice and right, but it would be considered inappropriate and poor taste by many church goers...and non-church goers alike. And Pastor Tim doesn't even have a SOP or dress code written for him, only societal or congregational expectations. Some will say there is a big difference between the 2 issues and there is. Pastor Tim doesn't have a set and printed dress-code rule and we Arrowmen do. Full disclosure, the pastor has Kansas city memorabilia but never wore a jersey during services that I know of...where anyone could see anyway.  So for now, be a good Scout, a good Arrowman. Follow the rules as to how, where, and when to wear your sash, and lead others in your example. 

P.S. I found a beading info-graph online quick enough and modified it to show my take on a possibility of what to wear with regalia:

33a017f55c3bafc34d625eb95a2c2f18.jpg.140bf8c1beb503db0466ea3fd1655586.jpg      399295912_OAsashWampumstyle1.jpg.4757f8c9eba7c2c33cac2250ab0c7a22.jpg

 

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Thanks @Longhaired_Mac!

Some machinations from my spin factory:

1 hour ago, Longhaired_Mac said:

I have to admit I haven't been back in Scouting for long so while I've paid my dues and have the new lodge flap sewn on my pocket, I haven't worn my OA sash in over 20 years, I don't even know if it would fit around me (joking....maybe not joking.) ...     

Stay friends with those larger scouts who might have a spare sash or two.

1 hour ago, Longhaired_Mac said:

.... I have spotted a few Arrowmen with their sashes tucked into their belt at events or in online pictures. My first reaction was that I rather liked it. ...

Out of deference to uniform purists, I no longer call them belts (from which one should not hang a sash). I call them sash-racks.

1 hour ago, Longhaired_Mac said:

... Just an example of why we follow uniform rules. I'm not much of a football person and if Pastor Tim really wants to have his old beat up Lincoln to be decked out with Kansas City Chiefs seat covers and license plate holder in a big Seattle Seahawk town that's his choice and right. But if he wears a Chiefs sweater or jersey on every football Sunday during Services instead of his suit and tie...well it's still his choice and right, but it would be considered inappropriate and poor taste by many church goers...and non-church goers alike. ...

Steeler's country ... we don't countenance duplicity... the pastor may take the pulpit in suit and tie if he wears his suit to his game. (E.g., I was brought up that it was disrespectful to wear a jersey unless you were on the team.) Otherwise, the plate might be a little light if gives a sermon without the jersey, especially if afterwards he's dashing to the mustard palace for a home game.  Of course there's a price to pay. Our city has been nominated worst dressed!

So, if you're pleasing national, uniform precisely. If you want to tell me what kind of scout or arrowman you are, improvise a little.

Love the bead graphic! Thanks for digging it up!

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On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2012 at 10:54 AM, desertrat77 said:

Woapalanne, I've been in the OA since '76...and when it is time to work, my OA sash is hung over the nearest tree branch, or folded up and stowed in my pack. Also, sashes used to be much smaller in length back in the day, there was far less material to slip.

 

But that's just me. If folks want to wear sashes to work, more power to them. But I don't think that alone justifies adding a useless appendage like loops to the uniform.

In my council, the youth made fun of OA sash "condoms" "protective plastic sleeves to keep the sash clean while doing service - usually some sort of dirty work".   In my council, a clean sash is the sign of an inactive OA member - one who doesn't provide much service.   There was usually a clash with mothers (they hated to see the white sash get soiled) but I liked the fact that the kids were proud of their service.   A clean sash showed an OA member was a "virgin" wrt service.   ;-)

FYI, our council (dating myself - about 10 years ago) had probably the best OA lodge in the country.

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22 minutes ago, acco40 said:

In my council, the youth made fun of OA sash "condoms" "protective plastic sleeves to keep the sash clean while doing service - usually some sort of dirty work".   In my council, a clean sash is the sign of an inactive OA member - one who doesn't provide much service.   There was usually a clash with mothers (they hated to see the white sash get soiled) but I liked the fact that the kids were proud of their service.   A clean sash showed an OA member was a "virgin" wrt service.   😉

FYI, our council (dating myself - about 10 years ago) had probably the best OA lodge in the country.

In my lodge growing up, "A clean sash is a sign of a lazy Arrowman." Kinda got in trouble for saying that when I told an individual who beligerently questioned my muddied, wet appearance at an Ordeal while he was in a spotless uniform and looked like brand new sash. He was the council president.

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I always wash my things thoroughly after outdoor activities (I am not a fan of mud or grime), so my first sash has remained pretty clean and bright through the years. A clean sash may be a sign of a lazy Arrowman, OR it may simply be a sign of a fastidious one. ;)

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