Knots, to wear or not to wear?

[ScoutBox 11]

Nugent, I too am working on my first knot. The Scouter's Training Knot. My paper work was sent and received, so if I get it then it will be my first and only knot. And a good chance my last one for a long while. that is if I ever get put in for another one later on??

[Eagle92 110]

Ok I'm going to be a PITA, but here it goes.

 

Why wouldn't you wear CS leader knots with a Venturing uniform? Why wouldn't you wear your Venturing leader knots on a Boy Scout uniform? Would you wear all of your knots on a district/ council uniform or none of your knots except DAM or SB? And for my Sea Scout friends, what 6 knots would you pick?

 

Seriously though i don't understand that logic of only wearing program specific knots instead of all of your knots. They are recognized leader awards by the BSA, they show your dedication to the movement. So what's the big deal?

 

Forgot to add, yes I wear my DAM, district committee key and STA on my cub scouter uniform

(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[UCEagle72 10]

PJ --

 

If memory serves me correctly, Sea Scouts, and their leaders, and limited to six knots on their uniform.

 

 

[msmjr2003 10]

Eagle92, I don't presume to speak on behalf of anybody but myself. Translation? This is an opinion, which is like an armpit...you know the rest of the armpit analogy, right? ;-)

 

Some may choose to wear awards that - to the wearer - take into consideration two factors. The first might be limiting clutter. In order to do that, picking and choosing helps whittle down the tally.

 

Whatever floats a person's boat, I suppose! :-)

 

Perhaps for me (and I might have mentioned this earlier), I have 2 shirts; the "rsum" shirt, upon which all my doohickies and dingle-dangles are kept for Courts of Honor and the like, and then my standard BSA shirt, which is mighty bare except for the necessities, such as council strip, badge of office, and that's about it. "What sort of Scout was I? Well, come here and let me show you how to build this fire and light it with one match....two if it's windy, but that's all it's gonna take." :-)

 

Some people like telling their BSA story passively upon their clothes, and that's cool; I'm just not one of those folks*. No shame in either variety. We need both to make BSA the best possible experience for our leaders of tomorrow.

 

 

*-On standard "shirt and pants" working uniforms in the USAF, officers rarely wear their awards and decs; they do so on formal uniforms, at "big deal" events, or when performing special duties that mandate awards and decs, such as recruiting. It's probably a personal "culture cling" of mine to continue the practice.

[sailingpj 18]

It is amazing how you can read something a half a dozen times and not notice a couple words.

 

emb - I don't like to assume that because someone is doing something that they are doing it correctly. I already made that mistake.

[VigilEagle04 10]

"Vig,

I hear ya. Yep I wear 6 knots, and to behonest I am an anal retentive uniform nazi who actually takes off my knots and resews them so that my Eagle, AOL, and religious knots are always the first three. Everything else will come after those three for me."

 

I know a few people like that. People are often surprised at mine though, in that those three are always the bottom row. I tell them they mean the most, and they are the most important. The thing is though, I view them as representative of the foundation upon which the remainder of my Scouting career rests.

 

It's kind of a symbolic and sentimental thing for me, but it's just my way of doing things. Since there is no order of precedence for the knots in the BSA, to each their own.

[acco40 95]

There is no hard and fast rule on which ones to wear - all, none or something in between is all acceptable. However, if you wear them, wear them correctly. I follow these guidelines:

 

1) Order - place them in order you wish. Some have, like VigilEagle04, a distinct preference on where they go. Others simply sew them on in the order they earned them.

 

2) Placement - if you wear a knot, please make sure it is properly placed (there is a left and right or if you wish top and bottom orientation. My preference is to have the knots centered; so if you have five, three on the bottom, two above centered. Some don't like this because they have to resew the row after an additional knot is earned. Another alternative is to simply start at the wearers inside (right) and add to the left until one gets to three and then add another row on top.

 

3) Number - I wear all the ones I've earned on some of my shirts and none on others. I rarely only wear some. It is considered "bad taste" to look like a Panamanian General (my apologies to any Panamanians out there) and have in excess of 12 or 15 knots. However, it is not a hard and fast rule.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[VigilEagle04 10]

acco40,

 

Interesting that you talk about starting on the inside for some with a new row. I've actually never seen that done. It's always been centered or the outside.

[jr56 92]

I will rerun the best reply I have read so far. There are 2 camps out there. Wear everything and look down on people who don't. Wear nothing, and look down on people who do. I personally don't care whether you wear all, none , or some, it is up to the individual, and if they are worn correctly, fine.

[Beavah 205]

Why wouldn't you wear Cub Scouting leadership knots on a Venturing uniform?

 

Because it's contrary to the uniforming guidelines, eh? To whit:

 

With the exception of the Cub Scout badges of rank and Arrow Points (which get worn until no longer a cub scout), members wear only the insignia that show their present status in the movement. Members should make every effort to keep their uniforms neat and uncluttered.

 

Keep those old awards around on a patch jacket or blanket, eh? They can make great mementos of your time spent in scouting. But yeh only wear those that are relevant to your current status in the movement. So when yeh move on to Boy Scouting, time to follow da example of the youth and take off your Cub Scouting awards. You need to be trained and earn your stripes in Boy Scouting.

 

A boy would look silly in a Venturing uniform shirt sporting all of his cub badges of rank, eh? No different for adults.

 

Beavah

 

[BrentAllen 10]

Uh, Beavah, that whole section is about Scouts, not Scouters. How exactly does an award knot indicate "status?" Does a Tiger Leader only wear his Tiger Cub Den Leader Award while he is serving in that position? He won't earn it until he has served for the year, and then most likely moves up to Wolf - does he never get to wear it? What about the Cubmaster who serves two years, earns his knot and then moves on to Boy Scouts? He doesn't ever get to wear his knot? And how does the DAM or SB show "status?"

 

Don't let the nattering nabobs rain on your parade. If you earned them, feel free to wear them.

[Beavah 205]

Nah, BrentAllen, da section is called "Special Regulations" and applies to everyone. It refers variously to scouts, scouters, venturers, cubs, etc. Da specific paragraph on Excess Insignia says "Members", eh? Not "Scouts". And "status" is pretty self-explanatory, especially with the "every effort to keep their uniforms neat and uncluttered" comment. What's your current position in da movement? Wear only those things relevant to your current position. Put da rest on a patch blanket or somesuch. Except, of course, "at functions where such a display is invited". So there might be special occasions.

 

Of course nobody is goin' to play uniform cop, and we all will find ways of justifying our views no matter what the guidebooks say, based on da values we have and what we feel is most important to teach the lads. The BSA doesn't really care about this stuff, so you're free to decorate your uniform as much or as little as yeh want, with official, unofficial, earned, unearned, or just plain amusin' badges and doodads. It's a kids' program, eh? Yeh can have as much fun with it as yeh like, call as much attention to yourself as yeh like, choose what sort of example yeh personally want to be.

 

I've chosen mine, and Eagle92 asked why, and I gave him my answer. You can choose differently, eh?

 

Just like yeh can choose to emulate the style and words of a former Vice President who resigned in disgrace for tax fraud. We all decide what example we want to set, and what we feel is important to teach the boys.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[FScouter 24]

The purpose of the embroidered knot is to replace the medal it represents, and thus help keep the uniform neat and uncluttered.

 

I must say that characterizing those that wear knots as "decorating" their uniform with amusing doodads seems mighty infantile in itself, We're not here playing this "kids' game" to look down our high and mighty noses at others. Is that really the "example we want to set"?

 

It's not enought that some folks don't want to wear a knot, but they expect others do the same, and belittle those that choose to properly use this small part of BSA insignia. I find it rather disgusting.

[ScoutBox 11]

Well, I just found out that I'm being awarded my first knot. " Scouter's Training Knot". So I'll wear it. Probably be my last one anyway. In my area they have no idea about knot's a stuff like that..

[Beavah 205]

The purpose of the embroidered knot is to replace the medal it represents, and thus help keep the uniform neat and uncluttered.

 

So by that characterization, are yeh suggesting that folks be limited to no more than 5 embroidered knots (since that is the limit on the number of medals that may be worn)? I can see that, though I think 6 (two rows) is also a reasonable limit for a fellow with a lot of years serving one program.

 

As for da rest, I always find it so enlightening when those who frequently quote guidebook passages at others find it "high and mighty" when others do the same to them. As someone else pointed out in da last thread on the topic, the BSA materials haven't really changed over da years, eh? The instruction to adults to be "tasteful" and avoid "overdecoration" of the uniform goes back to da SM Handbooks of the 50s.

 

So "decoration" is the BSA's term, FScouter, not mine. Feel free to express your disgust to that infantile fellow Green Bar Bill. The "proper" way to use the knot insignia is what da guidebooks have been saying for at least half a century: keep it simple and tasteful, avoid excess, display what's relevant to your current status/position.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)