The Uniform

[dan 10]

While reading these forums and reading some posts that think the uniform is so bad or posters that modify what the uniform is, and watching so many troops that do not wear the uniform. I asked myself why this rubs me the wrong way. After thinking about this I decided that reason that I dislike people that cut the uniform down or only wear parts of it is that I look on the uniform as a symbol of the BSA. I guess I see the uniform like the US of A flag, it is only a cloth symbol, but it means so much more. Now I understand that you can purchase the US flag from many different places in many different materials. But that is not the point of this post.

[Kudu 186]

My point exactly.

 

Defenders of the Uniform see it as a symbol of the BSA's neo-conservative "values" (with "obedience" being high on the list), pragmatists see the ideal Uniform as reflecting Scouting's promise of outdoor adventure (where form follows function).

 

Kudu

 

[evmori 11]

Let's take this one step further.

 

I fly the Stars & Stripes at my home. My neighbor doesn't. Does that make them less of an American? No. Does one have to fly a flag to be an American? No. But if one does fly a flag, there are rules that define the proper way to do it.

 

The same holds true for the BSA uniform. No one is required to own one to be a BSA member but if the uniform is worn, there are rules that define the proper way to wear one.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Venividi 35]

Some thoughts on the uniform method and its relationship to aims:

 

The church that sponsors our troup has a youth group. That group does have some similar aims with respect to the development of character. Their program is run without the use of a uniform.

 

There is a Catholic military academy for high school boys about 2 miles from my house. They also have a similar aim with respect to development of character. They do use a uniform - in fact, several uniforms; the daily school attire in addition to a dress uniform, which looks very similar to a military dress uniform. And parents pay a lot of money for tuition, the uniform, fundraisers, etc. that makes scouting costs pale in comparison. Wearing of the uniform is not optional, nor is wearing part of the uniform. I know a number of lads that have attended, including my nephew, and it appears to me to have been beneficial to them.

 

Is the wearing of the uniform "obedience"? I see where Kudu is coming from, and that may be part of it; or be dependent on point of view and/or how it is positioned, how it is implemented in a unit, and on the market being served. One could also position the uniform method as form of "discipline" as opposed to "obedience"; i.e., the self discipline to identify as a part of the group, which implies the tempering or modifying the wants and desires of the individual.

 

Being pragmatic, I do like the BDU's Kudu shows on his web site (if my memory serves me correctly).

 

There are those of us that implement a program using/expecting a full uniform, and combined with the other methods, have a positive impact and influence on the boys involved. There are also those of us that use/expect a partial uniform, and have a positive influence on the boys involved in their program. Scouts coming out of each unit will have had different experiences, due in part to the experience they had with the uniform. Different results will occur as part of the entire mix; uniform, the kids involved, the community they are in, the adults involved with the troop, the other adults in their life, etc.

Which is better, which is most effective? It is a bit like asking whether the church youth group or the military academy is better. They are different; but both are good.

 

 

 

 

[SemperParatus 1]

"After thinking about this I decided that reason that I dislike people that cut the uniform down or only wear parts of it is that I look on the uniform as a symbol of the BSA."

 

Dan,

 

Do you really dislike a boy merely because he is wearing jeans with a scout shirt? Or was this just a typo?

[CNYScouter 46]

My sons Troop doesnt believe the uniform is important and allows the boys to wear whatever they want to meetings and outings. One kid will have a shirt with no neckerchief, one will have a shirt with a neckerchief, the scout next will have a bolo tie. Other kids will be wearing the red polo shirt and a few will have no uniform. None of the Scouts wear the pants and the only adult with a uniform shirt on is the Scoutmaster.

 

Some of the comments I have heard about this informal uniform policy:

 

- After the Troop went to the Merit Badge Camp-oree at the Navel Academy in Annapolis, MD. I heard a comment that they were the only Troop there that did not have full uniforms.

- At our council camp-oree they were the only Troop that not a single kid brought their uniform.

- The Troop no longer goes to district events because it was embarrassing on how disheveled and unorganized the Troop was compared to other Troops.

 

These comments did not come from the Adult Leadership but from Scouts in the Troop.

 

When I tried to say something about this I was told by the Troop committee that this uniform policy adds to the uniqueness of the Troop and they saw no reason to change it.

 

If anyone think Uniforming doesnt matter these types of comments show that the boys do notice and care about how they look.

 

 

[AvidSM 11]

I agree with evmori. If you choose to wear the uniform, it should be done properly. The very meaning of the word "uniform" implies sameness. Every scout should be aware of what a "full" uniform is and where to put all the patches. Wearing says, "I'm a boy scout".

 

I believe in positive reinforcement when it comes to encouraging the boys to wear their uniforms. This gets about 80% compliance on average. How these other troops get 100%, I have no idea.

 

Should boys with no or improper uniforming be sent home? Do they call up their moms and have them bring the missing pieces? What downside should there be to improper uniforming? I can't see diciplining a boy because of it.

 

I think that some boys are just not responsible enough to keep track of where it is, keep it clean and remember to wear it. Plus the fact that some boys just don't like wearing it.

[Kudu 186]

Venividi writes:

 

There is a Catholic military academy for high school boys about 2 miles from my house.

 

The distinction that I would make is that this Catholic military academy does not have a government-established monopoly on "school." If they were to adopt BSA Uniform pants as a part of their school uniform, I bet a significant number of students would beg their parents to enroll them elsewhere. So the school would either respond to market forces and offer a uniform in which their students can take pride, or position their school as valuing obedience over self-discipline :-)

 

The only reason that the BSA Uniform remains so ugly is that Congress granted special rights to a religious organization, insolating them from the corrective forces of a free market economy.

 

So we are stuck with a Uniform reminiscent of the old Wendy's "Soviet Fashion Show" commercials from the same era :-/

 

Kudu

[scoutingagain 20]

So which scout shows more scout spirit?

 

Scout A who shows up at meetings and activities when he can, in full complete correct uniform, because his unit's adult leaders require a full correct uniform to participate, advance etc., or

 

Scout B who shows up at nearly 100% of his units activities, in a scout shirt and jeans most of the time, proudly wearing his scout shirt because he WANTS to?

 

I'm struck by AVIDSM's observation. In a unit where there is 80% uniform wear, I can pretty much come to the conclusion that those scouts that wear the uniform do so because they want to. They know they will not be excluded if they don't. In a unit that has 100% uniform wear, I don't know if a scout wears the uniform because they want to or because an adult has told them they have to.

 

Follow up question. If a uniform is not required to be a member, is requiring unit members to wear a uniform, unauthorized tweeking of the program?

 

SA

 

 

[dan 10]

SemperParatus

The word I should have used is disheartened in place of disliked. I did not mean to include scouts in my post only scouters. If I see a scout without a uniform. I think that he is from a troop that does not have the adult leadership to utilize all 8 methods correctly.

Thank You

 

evmori

Since you fly the flag, it means to me that you are proud to be an American and want to let others know that you are proud of being an American. Is your neighbor proud to be an American? Is he an American? He maybe but you would have to ask him, if he was flying the flag, you would have a pretty good idea before you talked to him.

 

Kudu

No one is stuck with the uniform, and who is this we you are talking about?

[Lisabob 13]

Well ok here I go. This whole uniform thing can be taken too far sometimes by people who are well-meaning and justly proud of being BSA members, but who seem to have left their common sense behind on occasion. When we become dogmatic I think we lose sight of the point of uniforming in the first place. Case in point:

 

My son's troop is a full uniform troop and they travel in Class A. Once they get to their camp site they usually change into more suitable outdoor attire for the weekend. My son owns a full uniform, wears it to every troop meeting and takes pride in it.

 

On a recent campout though, his only pair of scout pants got soaked on Friday night. When the troop formed up before departing on Sunday morning, my son chose not to wear his still-wet pants because...they were wet. Camp was an hour car ride from home and it was a really cold day. Wet pants would've been miserable.

 

The leaders required him to change back into his scout pants anyway. They wouldn't let the troop leave for home until he changed and the other boys were getting angry at my son about the delay. Things apparently degenerated into some rather nasty name calling. The leaders didn't do anything to stop this and it was suggested he should apologize for keeping everyone waiting.

 

Boy was he mad about what he perceived as unjust treatment. He nearly quit. Over a pair of pants.

 

My point I guess is that the methods are only useful in achieving the aims when they are applied with common sense. Of the various scouting methods, uniforming seems to be among the most prone to being abused - by both extremes.

 

 

[Kahuna 172]

It's all about leadership. That's how you keep your kids 100%uniformed. With leadership you can encourage them to feel it's worthwhile to wear it. As a leader you can live with an occasional pair of white socks or a kid that can't wear his uniform for some reason or other on occasion. A leader can make it important that kids feel responsible and are letting the team down if they don't wear it. With leadership you can make determinations that it makes no sense to make a kid wear wet pants home from a campout and you can make your kids understand why you can make an exception. 100% uniformed doesn't mean they have to sleep in them either.

 

Of course, to be a leader in scouting I would think you have to believe you are part of something other than religious organization operating under a government monopoly with an ugly uniform that you can't get kids to wear because they hate it.

[evmori 11]

dan,

Yes I am proud to be an American. I love this country. I also fly a Pittsburgh Steeler flag during football season. I love the Steelers. I also love Scouting.

 

Yes my neighbor is an American & proud to be one, too. He just isn't as showy as I am. Doesn't make him less of an American.

 

The same can be applied to Scouting. Are the Scouts & Scouters who wear the uniform more proud of being Scouts & Scouters than those who don't? Are they better Scouts & Scouters? I think if you answer yes there is a problem. I remember watching the news & seeing a rebel in Cuba with a Scout shirt on! Had my CSP on, too! I don't think he was proud to be a Scouter. He was just happy to have a shirt.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[eagle90 125]

Ed -

 

Now I'm beginning to lose any respect I had for you after the Pittsburgh Steelers information. Especially after what they did Sunday to our beloved Bears!

 

Dale

[evmori 11]

Dale,

I'll tell you the same thing my basketball coach use to tell me - Suck it up!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all(This message has been edited by evmori)