Scouts view of advancement method

[Venividi]

Beavah posted: Boys like to be recognized, eh? They appreciate being recognized by adults, but even more than that they want to be recognized by their peers. Advancement takes this desire for recognition and uses it as a way to motivate effort toward learning and personal growth.

Da thing of it is, boys have a very finely honed sense of "real" vs. "fake", eh? They know from personal experience with their peers which of their peers can be trusted with dinner, ...

 

I have observed this.

The unit I was with had a strong advancement focus. Very much similar to others having described; a unit that was a "do the requirement, get checked off". "No retesting; no need to retain knowledge because that would be adding to the requirements; motivate kids by "helping" them advance to first class in one year, even if skills were lacking (i.e., they hadn't really learned).

 

I woke up when the SM introduced a new FC scout to the troop; A scout that had just completed a SM conference and BOR, but was seen by the scouts and the ASM's as the scout with the least proficiency and spirit. There was a long pause, and then the scouts politely clapped. Most of of the scouts never said anything. I had a chat with one of the scouts afterwards; a scout that typically spoke his mind. He essentially said that the older scouts viewed advancement as a joke, because it didnt mean anything. Just something that they put up with, because the troop did have a good high adventure program. Caused us adults to re-evaluate our program, including advancement.

 

First and even second year scouts are motivated by frequent awards from adults, like they received in cub scouts. Once scouts mature enough to understand if the award has meaning or not, advancement loses its effectiveness in achieving aims if it has been used to recognize checking off of requirements rather than to recognize skills (i.e., what a scout is able to do).

 

How does your troop use advancement method to motivate scouts when the scouts see peers with minimal skills receiving awards for doing things once?

[Eagle92]

Ok it's been a while since I was with a troop. But I will tell you my experiences growing up.

 

First off, youth signed off on the T-2-1 requirements. PLs, members of the Leadership Corps (what may equated to venture patrol today) which is where the expereince scouts servng as instructors, QM, scribe, etc were placed, ASPL, and SPL were the only youth allowed to sign off, and they made sure that you knew the material before signing. Almost forgot, 1 exception. SPL and SM would assign Second Class Scouts to teach First Aid skills to another scout(s) in order for you to complete that FA MB requirement, and get First Class ( FA MB was required for FC at the time). Again we didn't just sign them off once they did it. We made sure that they knew it, and seen them use it or practice it.

 

Secondly, youth sat on BORs for T-2-1. Again this was allowed until 1989, and I think it was a mistake to take youth off those BORs. Why? because we did know who had their act together and who didn't. We knew who had scout spirit, and who didn't. We knew who the troublemakers, and ones who worked with their patrols.

 

Third, we expected those who had the badge to have the skills, relying on them to perform, and teach the new scouts in the patrol. Further when things hit the fan, we expected you to react, not loligag around. Two examples: it was another scout who recognized that I had hypothermia, not one of the adults, and he and the others helped me out. The second example was the time we had scout with some bleeding, and automatically I took off my necker and used it as a bandage to stop the bleeding. While I was upset b/c I did lose my GBB signature on the necker when it was washed, I bet GBB would be proud that I was able to treat a hurry case though.

 

Fourth, we had a troop that was not only adult run, but a MB mill. Let's just say that there was some animosity between the two troops. Yes they had a lot of eagles, and yes they won some local summer camp awards, but we knew who was in charge of their troop, and who was in charge of ours. Funny thing is, when they lost their SM, that troop folded within a year. When we lost ours, we kept on going.

 

Now other troops that were like ours in that they were boy led, and had the youth signing off on advancement like us, well there was some good-natured competition, but there was a lot of respect and interaction between us. Heck we had a few joint camp outs, and we had members from going on HA trips with each other.

 

As far as advancement motivation is concerend, the troop I was with didn't really focus on it. More concerned with camping and hiking. Except when someone was near 18 and needed a little extra push. SM might remind them that they may want to focus on Eagle, but he left it up to them, no pressure.

[Twocubdad]

Vennie is spot-on.

 

In another thread on this topic, Fred made a comment along the lines that 10- 11- and 12-year-old boys have a very keen sense of fairness. His point was boys wouldn't stand for adults who change requirements or add to them (my words, not his). But this is the other half of that equation. That same sense of fairness makes them very aware of who is getting away with something or when the adults are blowing smoke.

[83Eagle]

Beavah writes:

 

Better just to drop da Advancement Method from your program and use the other seven well.

 

Hmmm...

 

I was going down this exact same line of thought. There are many other programs that youth enjoy where they don't get patches to sew to their uniforms to signify "advancement." Instead they earn a reward of position based on their skill and achievement. They become the starting quarterback, they're made first chair in the orchestra, they land the lead role in the school play.

 

Advancement is only one of the eight methods of scouting, but if it were dropped as one of the methods, how long do you think scouting would last?

[OldGreyEagle]

What if Advancement was not emphasized? Perhaps a Troop would have an emphasis on High Adventure, being Outdoors oriented and most of the units efforts were to learn outdoor and high adventure skills... perhaps that would have a religious bent, and emphasize a scout is reverent and concentrate their efforts along those lines, or maybe even that a scout is physically strong and make Sports an emphasis. or a Hobby .. wait, we already have this program and OMG Its Coed!

[83Eagle]

So is that why Venturing is the "fastest growing program of the BSA?"

[Eagle92]

Only time rank was really emphasized in my troop growing up was for certain leadership positions, and usually the PORs had the an additional requirement of being a PL for a minimum of 6 months.

 

In my old troop, you had to be First Class or higher and served as a PL for 6 months to be eligible for election for SPL. ASPL had to have the same rank and expereince Also to be a member of the Leadership Corps, which was your older scouts, you had to be at least First Class, been a PL, and, voted into the LC by the current members. Ok it wasn't a technical vote, more like the current members agree that a FC scout had the KSAs to join and have troop level responsibilities.

 

But honestly we had folks coming to meeting and doing stuff who had no interest in getting eagle. They just wanted to have fun.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[moosetracker]

83Eagle - I thought the fastest growing was Soccor Scouts?.. Honestly Venturing isn't growing at all where I am, but if it is the fastest growing in other areas of the country, that is probably because it is new so to grow from 0 crews to 10 crews to 100 crews on through the years make them the fastest growing.. Which is why Soccor Scouting now being the newest has probably replaced them as the fastest growing.

 

From what I am told Cub Scouts still has the majority of units and kids enrolled, our district has more Troops then packs.. But the Packs still beat them in number of kids..

 

We have maybe 2 good Venture Crews in our district, the other 4 are at deaths' doors.. But it is true, they don't work on Advancement. My husband being Adv. Chair is tasked to track the Districts Advancement. After two years of tracking and having no crew Advancement we just figured they did not send their paper work to us.. Last month we got our first Crew Advancement we were so startled we didn't know what to do with it..

[83Eagle]

I'm just citing scouting.org verbiage regarding Venturing. I don't have any statistics.

[83Eagle]

When I went through the program the view of scouting was a way to earn badges, period. I would not say it was an "Eagle Mill" because we didn't have many make Eagle. It was simply a small troop, we did hardly any outdoor activities, and eventualy you either "Eagled-out" or dropped out.

 

I really didn't know any better at the time. But I still see that perception of scouting among boys, that advancement is THE purpose of scouting. I recently talked to a boy who had dropped from our sister troop a few years ago and I asked him why. He said "They don't work on any badges, they just play games and go camping. I can do that on my own." So that was interesting.

 

Yes Scouting promotes its community service and character development aspects, but a key visual image of scouting to the public is a boy in full class A uniform with a sash full of badges and an Eagle medal.

 

So if we truly did "drop the Advancement Method," would scouting turn into something better or fade away?

[Eagledad]

There are as many approaches to the advancement method as there are raisins in a box of Raisin Bran. There have also been merit badge mills long before I was a scout wayyy backkkk in the 60s. Alladults have different motivations toward their vision for scouts.

 

But the difference today that I believe has caused some of the problems we see with the advancement method is the introduction of the First Class in the First Year program. The FCFY program basically directs all adults to put advancement a head of most of the other methods. Its nolonger up to the scout to set a goal and a pace, the adults do that now.

 

Use to, badges were in most cases recognition for a level skills a scout had learned to survive on his own in the woods. Rank had respect because it displayed scouts who you could trust to came back from a weekend in the woods. Now badges are used as markers for adults to track so they know how well they are meeting BSA set standards. Its not that adults are lazy, but how does a new scout leader measure patrol method or leadership. FCFY sets and easy measurement for adults to meet.

 

I dont think we need to take the advancement method out of the program, we just need to remove FCFY and instead encourage a quality program where any scout could advance on his own as fast as he wanted.

 

Barry

 

[Eagle92]

"Dad,

 

You stole my thunder in this thread.

[83Eagle]

Yes, but the FCFY program is actually an increase over the 3-month requirement of the 1960s, isn't it? Scouting history is not my strong suit so I'm sure if I'm wrong I'll hear about it.....

 

Edit: there is a difference between a requirement and an emphasis, which is the point of 'dad I believe.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

[qwazse]

100% of boys FCFY is what offends us. That a couple of "ahead of the curve" boys deservedly earn FCFY is not a problem. When you tell me that my unit lacks quality because it's taking on average 2.5 years for a boy to achieve FC, I reply that that is precicely why our unit is quality!

[Lisabob]

Had this conversation (again) in the car on the way home from a troop meeting tonight. Scoutson is almost 17.5 and almost Life. He has been Star for years, was 1st class for years, was 2nd class for a year+, was Tenderfoot for a year+. Advancement never caught his interest.

 

I really wish he would care more about earning Eagle but at this point I am not holding my breath. He is getting a lot of push back now from other adults and even some boys in his present troop. So he was venting about it in the car on the way home.

 

In his former troop: boys were advanced despite having limited skill and terrible attitudes/behavior problems. It disgusted my son. He felt that badges were more about showing off and adults bullying each other into giving out awards like candy. If any jerk can get rank as long as mommy & daddy threaten to make a stink, then who wants it? My son concluded that he didn't need (or want) to advance to get something out of his scouting experience.

 

In his current troop (which he joined a year ago): advancement recognizes more worthy character traits and achievements so it is baffling to members of this troop that my son isn't interested. But old views take a long time to change, if ever. Or as he put it, "I kind of flipped that switch off in the old troop and I don't think I need to flip it back on again, now."

 

Anyway he has until the end of December to earn Life if he still wants a chance at earning Eagle. I'll be surprised if he decides to do it, though I wish he would. He no longer views advancement as a joke but now he seems to view it as unnecessary.