Is Eagle a Diploma or an NHS Membership?

[Beavah]

Yah, da previous thread got to comparin' the Eagle Rank to a High School Diploma.

 

A boy gets his handbook, then sets about fillin' da requirements. So long as he gets da requirements filled at the bare minimum (often by findin' the easiest way to get the credits, like summer school or summer/badge camp instead of the "regular" process) or at least gets the signature of a teacher/scouter who doesn't care very much, he gets to graduate.

 

High school graduates get to wear uniforms and stand in a procession with 500 other boys and girls to get their name mentioned briefly.

 

Another way of thinkin' about Eagle is that it's more like earning an award or getting inducted into the National Honor Society. To do those things, there are guidelines, but also some subjective evaluation. Yeh have to do significantly more than the minimum, do service in and outside the school, get strong recommendations from a number of trusted people.

 

We celebrate graduation awards and NHS by makin' a bigger fuss and ceremony, and talk about how only a small percentage of kids get so recognized and how great an example they are.

 

So which one is Eagle? Our Court of Honor ceremonies say "someone special, well above the minimums". Da way some folks view the requirements, though, it's more like doin' the minimum to graduate by reluctantly draggin' your tail across da finish line to make your mom stop nagging.

 

What says the group? Is Eagle a Diploma/Certificate of Completion or an Award?

 

Beavah

 

[scoutldr]

When I earned the Eagle in 1970, the little jewelry box it came in said "Eagle Scout Award". (there's one on Ebay right now). The 2009 version of the application form refers to it as the "Eagle Scout Rank". Are the terms used interchangeably, or was there a conscious change somewhere along the line? I don't know...didn't notice. If Eagle is now considered just another rank, then yes, it's just a diploma, certifying that the requirements were met. If it's still considered an "Award", then that's different...you have to earn 21 MB and do a project just to be considered...but it's not automatic. I would hope it's the latter.

[Oak Tree]

My experience with honor societies is that they do very much the same thing that is referred to here - they say that they have a subjective evaluation, but in practice at the schools I've been at, it's just everyone whose grades are above a certain cutoff. So in that sense, I'd say that Eagle is almost exactly like the National Honor Society. We pay lip service to having the honorees be "someone special, well above the minimums" but we award the recognition to (almost) everyone who meets the minimums.

 

I say "almost" because I recognize that a kid can do something egregious to get himself disqualified from either group, but barring that, I think he'll be in.

[eghiglie]

I don't know the exact number/percent of scouts that actually make Eagle.

 

However, way more boys graduate high school. So I think Eagle is an award that can be attained by doing the bare minimum with persistence, perseverance and patience.

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

NHS has a relatively high bar for its minimum. Heck, any of the HS honor societies do. EagleSon was in Tri-M (HS honor society of Music Educators National Conference). It took a combination of grades, musical performance, and service to meet the floor.

 

The floor for an honor society is an automatic limiting factor. It denotes a minority of excellence from the group as a whole.

 

Even with the things we do, Eagle Scout takes work. Not every young man who walks in a Troop is going to earn it. Indeed, most do not. When I was CC, I had a 17 year old, a Star Scout, whose parents made him attend events. We were the baby-sitter on Monday nights and one weekend a month. The SM and I sat down with them. They asked about Eagle. We told them ... and they winced, because they didn't realize the investment their boy would have to make. (BTW, he was/is into cheer, and probably should have been specializing there by the point he was 17).

 

I love the staff banquet at the end of summer camp season. When I look at the young men, they are nearly all Eagles. The values which Eagle symbolizes are part of who they are.

 

So, to end this ramble, Eagle is closer to NHS, but to me, it's more like the next defining moment in a young mans' life ... just as his taking station in life, marriage, and fatherhood will be.

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

I think that the Eagle Rank is not one or the other, but has aspects of both.

 

It is a rank, just like Tenderfoot and Life, and if you meet the requirements (including the subjective ones like living the Oath and Law) you should get it. There are no quotas or limits, every boy can earn it, if he puts in the effort.

 

But it is also a recognition that the boy has gone above and beyond, both in acheivement and service and is rightly celebrated as such.

 

But I think to many outside the movement, it is thought of more like a diploma, it means that you went all the way through and "completed" tha program, just like a HS or college graduate has. And I think that this aspect of completeness is what makes the Eagle stand out above the scout who "only" got to Star or Life, as significant as those accomplishments can be.

 

If I'm looking at an employment application (as I have had occaision to do) and I see that a boy (or man) has indicated that he is an Eagle, it tells me a lot about his ability to accomplish things, in the same way that completing a course of study at a university would.

 

Anyway, that's this Eagle's (who was not a NHS member)POV.

 

DWS

[ntrog8r]

A diploma is something you give yourself by completing someone else's known and established requirements.

An award is something you're given by others in recognition of your accomplishments; the requirements may be objective (and published) or subjective (and unknown).

Rank is positional and defines where you stand in relation to others in the same group.

 

Eagle is all of the above, but ultimately it is what you ARE. A reflecton of what you become after a journey. How the program is implemented may cause one or more of the above elements to appear larger than the others but an Eagle is judged on their decisions in life, not just skill/knowledge. That is why we are so disappointed when we here stories about bad decisions made by Eagles, but NHS members. Standards ARE high and they are for life.

[Stosh]

Thanks Beavah for the thread. It speaks directly to the problem I'm facing with a lack-luster scout who's earned the rank but shows nothing as even an inkling of anything beyond the minimum.

 

Add to that, once the application was signed, he chose to totally disregard the safety of others and caused a major ruckus all the way up to the Council level.

 

Don't cha just love working with kids? Just when you think you've got a handle on something, they pull some sort of stunt that leaves you scratching your head?

 

If ya didn't love 'em, you'd shoot 'em. (Before anyone gets worked up about that statement, it's what my mother always used to say about us kids when we were growing up! No, I'm not considering turning into a serial killer. LOL!)

 

Stosh